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Post by rhillahorse on Dec 23, 2008 15:15:38 GMT 1
However, Yes the Whitakers have behaved like that. I have seen Ellen lose it with her horses a fair few times. I've also seen Ellen whacking her horse repeatedly for refusing. There don't seem to be many really good role models for younger show jumpers to look up to unfortunately. I have no problem with a whip being used as an aid but never as a punishment and never to frighten or cause pain. Same with spurs.
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Post by holi on Dec 23, 2008 16:57:22 GMT 1
sad to see this but its not just SJers. I've known eventers beat their horses and dressage riders and as for tight draw reins.....don't get me started!
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Amanda Seater
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Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 23, 2008 18:24:41 GMT 1
Hmm - no whip but ok to use curb bits by themselves an (American thing)? Ok to kick sadly also - though I haven't seen so much of that lately Kelly does use a hand on a stick as the extension of an arm for safety and accuracy...... does it matter what it is used for it is still a stick and the handler of this stick could still choose to clock tyhe horse with it. NO DO NOT HIT your horse with it. There is very old history in using the stick for guidance as well as old history for using it for punishment. I believe that Kelly would not be at all offended by what I have posted and would welcome the discussion "in her house"
I also carry a stick when out hacking - good for doshing on the roof of cars that are going too fast too close - if I'm quick enough! also good for defending against dogs if needs be. good for use as a machete get branches out of the way ( a bit safer too) Excellent for getting flys off where you can't reach from the saddle in the summer( main use whilst hacking to be honest) FORCE is BAD in any form
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Post by horsey2 on Dec 23, 2008 20:09:37 GMT 1
Couldn't agree more amelia, I saw both of them that night and thought it was awful, also noticed mainly the older riders riding without whips and a lovely man (don't know his name ) who's horse refused a jump twice reassured it both times it refused and on the second time retired patting the horse which I thought was brilliant.
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Post by bramblesmum on Dec 23, 2008 20:15:43 GMT 1
Being slightly OTT there its as bad as saying all bits are evil because they can be misused Being a carriage driver I use a driving whip as an extension of my body as I would have to be bloody brilliant to be able to reach my horse, she is voice trained mainly I use the whip to subtly tuck her bottom in literally by touching her side, as otherwise we could hit a car, without it we are an accident waiting to happen. When I ride I use the schooling whip to subtly back up my leg no hitting or lashing, how is this any worse than a whip wop rope or a pair of long lines flicking alongside the horse I never use a whip in agression or with a violent aim and would not condone such use, however I am not single minded enough to see them as the work of the devil as in mature hands they are nothing different to other IH tools
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tamzin
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Post by tamzin on Dec 23, 2008 20:22:37 GMT 1
Have you ever been to a bsja junior show never mind the senior ones. Just dont go if you are easily upset. i dont know who teaches kids to ride in spurs but they are all wearing them.
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Post by bramblesmum on Dec 23, 2008 20:33:32 GMT 1
maybe they copy each other and it's the parents who should be blamed for not being more clued up. As I said correct mature use of aides IMHO is no different to many IH aides, but with children there can be some complications, certainly would not allow a child of mine to ride in them
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tamzin
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Post by tamzin on Dec 23, 2008 21:22:36 GMT 1
Yep have never seen the good side of spurs. Dressage why would you need them if your aids are so good? Anyway not a fan of hitting horses or causing pain to them.
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cobalmighty
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Post by cobalmighty on Dec 23, 2008 23:29:55 GMT 1
like anything, it's not the tool that needs blaming but the way in which it is used!
a schooling whip should be nothing more than an extension of your arm or leg, helping to explain to the horse with a touch or push what it is you are asking for. Neither is a violent action, or harmful in any way. To say "all whips are bad" or suggest it is out of order to even be discussing their use on the IH site is a tad reactionary! I've seen some pretty horrific abuse applied with a Dually in the name of 'horsemanship' but I don't decry their existence!
as for spurs, their use should definitely be confined to those riders who are educated in their correct application and whose legs are well enough poised and controlled to be able to apply them with subtlety and precision and, most importantly, lightness. Spurs are not about causing pain, but applying aid to a very specific point on the horse's side. It's not about 'being so good' you need spurs. The human leg is a good four inches wide, and is really quite a dull aid to the horse. Spurs allow the equivalent of finger tip pressure allowing a much finer level of communication with the horse, which you need for the higher level movements.
Anyone using them for more 'go' or claiming they have a lazy horse needs shooting!
I school with a long whip, and have only ever needed to touch my mare - and I literally mean 'touch' - to help explain a movement to her. My cob is a little less cooperative and I use the whip to rattle my boot to regain his focus mostly! Out hacking it is a great traffic aid - thwacking car roofs is my favourite - I figure if they're close enough to reach they are fair game! and for hooking blackberry branches that would otherwise be beyond reach. I hook em down, mare eats them!
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tamzin
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Post by tamzin on Dec 24, 2008 7:45:53 GMT 1
I understand what your saying but I think that people get angry with the horse (quite often the horse does not know what the rider is asking or has not been trained properly) and their tools are a way of passing their anger to the horse.
I fell out with my riding instructor as she told me to give "my" horse a massive beating up. What does that achieve exactly? She said I was too soft on him. Maybe I am but you would not beat up another human so why the hell would you hit a horse.
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Amanda Seater
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Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 24, 2008 10:47:49 GMT 1
Tamzin Again it is the hands that hold the tool. bit, whip, pressure halter, heels without spurs or with- whatever. It is the choice of the human to react in anger or not and some do not know any better. And yes I have in the past I admit it,I am not proud of this in any way, however it is part of what I believe helps me to understand and helps me to encourage and reason others away from these behaviours " anger management"? . Children follow the actions of others because of the conditioning to obey authority. My daughter got thrown out of pony club because she refused to give her horse a big kick, hit her with a stick or pull backwards on the reins. For the last longtime I prefer to see that if the horse does not do what I want, I am not comunicating in the right way to be understood and horse is no doubt doing exactly what it thinks I want. The horse isn't telepathic and neither has it read any riding manual. Why sould I blame it. Ther is no point shouting louder either. Gentle repetition until the horse finds what it thinks it has to do then praise and celebration! Tamzin - regarding your instructor- she was in my mind very wrong but she is probably only repeating what she has been taught without reasoning for herself why. The saying is "she is doing the best she can with the tools she has"- it doesn't make her right. perhaps she needs to be given the tools to reason as you have.
No you may not beat another human up for not complying- some would. It makes sense to not shout louder in English to a Polish person with no English - but many do! There is not much point in speaking slow if they have no English either. Now this is where sign language may help or even touch.- I am not beating that person up though.
Happy xmas and rest assured I will not be beating anyone or my horses. Ok so maybe in self defence - who knows eh? Peace and goodwill to all at this time of year and always. Amanda
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 24, 2008 12:31:00 GMT 1
Many years ago, I resigned from my University riding team over a whip. We were at team practise one day and the instructor insisted on trying to give me a whip, saying "you are going to have to use this to get him going". I replied "If he doesn't want to do it, then neither do I", turned my horse in, hopped off, hugged my horse and left.
It was the best riding decision of my life. I am a lot prouder of doing that than I would have been to win any competition - particularly knowing it would have been won at the expense of the horse.
I don't like what the whip represents. Anyone who learned to ride in a riding school knows that showing a horse a whip makes it go faster. That's because it has been used to inflict pain in the past and now represents a threat or, at very least, conditioned response.
Unless a horse has never been hit with a whip, I do not believe that horse can consider a whip to be a tool of subtle direction.
Futhermore, I think there are a lot of riders who tell themselves the whip is there for purposes other than hitting a horse - right up to the moment they decide to use it for that.
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cobalmighty
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Post by cobalmighty on Dec 24, 2008 16:24:22 GMT 1
this is an interesting point and one I kind of disagree with. I think horses are far more aware of our body language than we are and they know and understand intent. I can walk past my once headshy mare swinging a broom around my head and she doesn't bat an eyelid, whereas if anyone did it she'd be a quivering wreck at the back of her stable. I'm fairly certain she's been walloped with a variety of things, judging by her reaction to tools, broomsticks, long ropes, all sorts of whips, etc when I first had her. But over time she has learnt than I am not going to hit her with any of them. She couldn't be lunged at all at the start and will now lunge, long rein or work at liberty with a full size lunge whip or a schooling whip and I can touch her anywhere and direct her movements and she is soft, willing and calm. We can also play tag, with me running AT her and her frolicking off like a spring lamb, totally relaxed in the knowledge that we are playing and I won't hurt or scare her. She is the gentlest and most careful mare (and so light on her feet for one so big - 17.1hh and nearly 700kg) because she understand my intent. One of her most favourite things is to have a good back scratch with a shavings fork, prickly side down - she'll actually stand next to the fork and beg with her front leg! And yet if a stranger walks past carrying th same fork, she'll run and hide. Once she knows a person though, they are welcome to weild the fork around any time they like. She reads and understands intent. I use her to judge character! If she backs away, so do I.
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Post by ooo_banana on Dec 24, 2008 22:59:38 GMT 1
i dont perticurly like Ellen to be honest. and as for it being PC type behaviour ...we don't act like this at my pony club !!
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Post by ladynowak on Dec 24, 2008 23:27:19 GMT 1
I think that when there are people competing at a high level on their IH, whip free, spur free horses then people may take more notice. Just out of interest, why do you think there aren't any high profile IH types competing at the top of the showjumping world?
Have you ever ridden a truely difficult horse? Comments like this are fine if you have a perfect little horse who never puts a hoof out of place, but flipping heck. If my horse doesn't want to do something for a good reason (pain/illness) then I wouldn't dream of asking him to do it, but if he just doesn't fancy it... tough. I don't believe that it is right to let a horse decide what they do/don't fancy doing.
Whips used correctly have their place, whips used badly don't.
What are you classing as hitting here? Is it any time a schooling whip/crop makes contact with the horse or just when it is used badly?
I couldn't disagree more, it is about subtly of aids. Your horse does not need to have been beaten lensless to be able to understand what its purpose is.
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