Bay Mare
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Speak to the hoof
Posts: 1,818
|
Post by Bay Mare on Dec 16, 2008 23:12:50 GMT 1
Agree with the OP although I don't have a problem with a green or just back into work horse coming btv occasionally as long as it's addressed and is NOT because the rider is hauling on the reins. I agree with everyone else that Roz's photo looks better than the GP dressage rider's photo! Having AVG at the BD dressage convention didn't do anyone any favours, it was a watered down version of rolkur made more palatable and acceptable. Instructors who were anti rolkur were swayed by that, even saying that it wasn't as bad as they had thought Both Dr Gerd Heuschmann's and Philippe Karls books are good reading for anyone concerned or interested in the effects of hyperflexion.
|
|
|
Post by Emma R on Dec 16, 2008 23:13:12 GMT 1
Well said Lisa Sadly Philippe Karl's book is still on my wishlist not my bookshelf but I can highly recommend Dr Gerd Heuschmann's book and I saw a trailer for a DVD of his (not sure if it is out yet or not) that looks very informative.
|
|
|
Post by cbc on Dec 16, 2008 23:15:33 GMT 1
The trouble is (as I see often round here) is that pic 2 looks more "flash" the horse looks professional. The fact that it isnt correct is a boring irrelevance to too many people The outside appearance counts for too much.
|
|
varkie
Grand Prix Poster
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 4,913
|
Post by varkie on Dec 16, 2008 23:23:36 GMT 1
Actually, neither pic is correct. You could make a lovely picture, by taking the best of both photos, and combining them.
I don't like to see Btv, but then I don't like seriously Atv either. Neither is good. Both are tried by novice horses, and it's our job as riders to show the horse the way forward.
|
|
|
Post by gemmamarygold on Dec 16, 2008 23:30:14 GMT 1
What about those horses that have a thick neck, with not a lot of room at the throat for them to drop their nose onto the vertical?
Marygold is such a case. She is quick thickset @ the neck and will find it physically very difficult to drop her nose to the vertical. We've just started some lessons to ensure that she is working properly. She has a tendency to stick her nose out and drop onto the forehand, and I'm sure my riding doesn't help. So we're really focusing on me riding her properly so that she's working from behind and using her back properly. But she won't look flash because of the nose poking out. It'll come, and improve, but it's unlikely it'll ever be the 'ideal'.
|
|
|
Post by misty on Dec 16, 2008 23:37:35 GMT 1
Saw a horse at a show at the weekend. It poked it's nose out a bit but did every thing the rider asked. The horse looked happy the rider looked happy. They didn't win but they did for me.
|
|
|
Post by hazelhorse on Dec 16, 2008 23:38:04 GMT 1
I agree with Varkie on this. Neither picture is perfect. The professional has the horse horribly overbent, but also has a lot more impulsion and actually has the horse working and going forward, just a shame she is blocking it with her hands and turning the energy into a whirlpool in front of his chest. With his own rider the head and neck are far more relaxed and closer to the ideal, however the horse doesn't appear to be working forward enough and is far from tracking up. But if the energy is added to that frame, the horse will start to look more correct.
In my younger days when competing in dressage tests being overbent was severely marked down and definately frowned upon. These days when my daughter is riding, and when I go out teaching, I find that at least 70% of the horses I see are overbent and that includes test winners!
|
|
|
Post by cbc on Dec 16, 2008 23:48:25 GMT 1
No, neither picture is perfect, but like Hazelhorse, I was brought up to believe that overbent is the greatest sin. Of the two pictures, I feel the horse will benefit from building from where he is in the first picture.
|
|
|
Post by Roz on Dec 17, 2008 9:31:25 GMT 1
I agree with my instructor on board Centy is really working through from behind (to a certain extent) and is tracking up very nicely, whereas with me on board although he looks happier up front he is not tracking up and not 'using himself' correctly. What I aim to do is have the impulsion of my instructor with a slightly better head carriage than my pic.
|
|
|
Post by rifleman on Dec 17, 2008 9:57:28 GMT 1
Bit harsh I would say! Don't get me wrong I don't like seeing horses going round with their head between their knees, but at the same time I don't like to see a horse going round with its nose in the air and obviously isn't listening to the rider. It is not always possible for a horse to go from doing giraffe impressions as a baby to having the perfect poll high, soft, advanced outline that you would expect from a higher level horse. My CBx will go behind the vertical and I ride him through it, he is green when it comes to schooling so it doesn't bother me but I don't let him get into the habit of it. So long as he isn't evading my contact with his head between his knees and is tracking up I don't really care if he is slightly behind the vertical. Ladynowak - I think, in fairness to Lisa's original post, I'd say there's a world of difference between a green horse sometimes going behind the vertical of his own volition, as against a horse being pressured into placing his head there, and keeping it there, by the rider - which is, I think, the main thrust of her objection. My own view is that, regardless of what Roz's instructor achieved with her horse in other ways, his over-bent neck is just plain wrong, and is nothing like true collection - it's not supple, balanced, and soft - it's stiff and distorted. Ironically, if you have a look at Rhillahorse's post, under the text of her post, the second photo from the left is a classic illustration of a horse flexing beautifully at the poll! And she's not even riding him . . . As further proof of how awkward it is for the horse in this overbent position, how often do you see a 'top dressage rider' whose horse's chest is splattered with foaming spit - and how often is it explained away as "that shows the horse is mouthing the bit, so his mouth is soft" - despite the fact that said horse has got his mouth clamped tight shut with a flash noseband, so can do little more than grind his teeth? There's actually a much simpler explanation, as was pointed out to me by a friend; the horse is dribbling spit because his neck and jaw is so constrained that he can't swallow it. So, Roz - good for you for having the bottle to question somebody doing what you considered to be wrong! Even more so, because it was being done by someone considered an expert And Lisa P - keep rattling the bars! Best regards, Jack
|
|
yatva
Intermediate Poster
Bunnyhugger
Posts: 186
|
Post by yatva on Dec 17, 2008 10:18:00 GMT 1
I cannot understand how a horse tolerates being ridden in the overbent position. Neither of my horses will allow it to happen. My mare just yanks the reins out of my hands and puts her head between her knees should I even attempt to take such a strong contact, or she backs away from the contact completely, flings her head in the air and attempts to rear. My OH's horse, just locks his jaw and puts his head up and hollows his back. How do the other horses allow this to happen ? What methods do the riders use to force the horse into the overbent position or do I just have very opinionated horses ?
|
|
Jaydurh
Advanced Poster
Syrah Belle, Love of my life, My soul mate, You're my best friend.
Posts: 402
|
Post by Jaydurh on Dec 17, 2008 11:02:00 GMT 1
My horse was broken and trained for dressage in Spain, they have taught him to overbend and when he takes off he uses it because he knows you won't stop then. Looking at him in the field he is smart when he is in his natural outline. When I ride him I don't force it in, I let him got naturally from his hind to make him relax into my fingers. I did a dressage test on my other horse and I don't make him just all of a sudden go round, I got marks deducted for having his nose 'pointy' just because he didn't have his head in his kness.
At my college there is a person who when they ride they force them into an outline but dragging the reins to make it go in. I go mad and tell her it ruins their muscles but it doesn't stop her. Poor horses.
|
|
|
Post by jennyb on Dec 17, 2008 11:10:49 GMT 1
There is another myth being bounded around on this thread too, which is that the horse must be "tracking up" and have lots of "impulsion". I personally prefer the horse to work within it's own natural balance, with lots of transitions between and within the pace focussing on the horse being light and responsive to the leg and hand, and develop better movement slowly as a result of improving the muscle and balance. IMHO, pushing the horse out of it's natural rhythm and balance in an effort to have the horse track up will hinder the gymnastic development of the horse and lead to tension and resistances. Tracking up should be an incidental occurrance of correct classical schooling, not a goal in itself. In the first photo of Roz (sorry Roz, not being picky just using you as an example as you were brave enough to post pics! ), the horse is in the right basic frame, he just needs some lateral and longitudinal suppling work in order to help him engage his quarters a little more and begin to take more weight behind. This will come over several schooling sessions, not in one hour, but it's a heck of a lot easier to work with a horse in that frame than one who has learned to tuck his nose behind the bit and dash off. Keep the poll light Roz and do plenty of transitions, working lightly and not driving him into your hand, coupled with some slow and careful lateral work and you'll see some very different photos in a few months
|
|
|
Post by annabelle h on Dec 17, 2008 11:39:01 GMT 1
Hear hear LisaP and all, It is such a social convention that if a horse isn't "round" (ie overbent, usually) then you're not a good rider and the horse isn't "working" properly. So many people that I've taught who are on livery yards just feel terribly embarrassed at working their horse without it being overbent . . . And as you say the overbent, on the forehand style of riding is regarded as "professional", especially if there is enough "impulsion" (ie horse is racing around on the forehand). The reality of a poor way of going is obscured by phrases that have lost their original meaning, like "coming through", "tracking up", "working through his back" etc etc - perpetuating the emperor's new clothes. And yet this wins dressage tests . . . There are *some* riders/judges out there who penalise a strong contact and overbending - let's hope they grow in number. If only it wasn't called "on the bit"! Annabelle
|
|
lovelylace
Grand Prix Poster
Always remember to ride with your soul, not your hands.
Posts: 4,541
|
Post by lovelylace on Dec 17, 2008 12:26:45 GMT 1
ok again, hard to judge from snap shots just in time, but I would agree with varkie here..neither is correct and if the instructor would ease up a tad in the hand that would be great and then the horse would have the impulsion and the forwardness and not be behind the hand.
I don't have a problem with horses dipping a bit behind the vertical or indeed a bit in front when they are younger and not so established, but I dont like horses that are pulled in behind teh vertical with hard strong hands...BUT I also hate horses that are not ridden forwards properly either, what most people in this country seem toregard as a working trot I would call a sluggish jog..that combined with most people being hard in the hand and blocking the horse plus having it overbent makes it terrible riding..Horses should move purposefully forwards and want to move forwards as well, when you have the forward thinking established the horse will be straighter, more engaged and you can then easier create a nice soft connection in your hand ... I think the horse looks like the back end is far more "in gear" in the second pic, if you can aim for that but remain with your soft hand then I think you will be on the right track Roz, lovely horse by the way ;D
|
|