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Post by lisap on Dec 17, 2008 18:37:57 GMT 1
Donnalex, Mea Culpa!! Thank you for pointing it out I have now changed it to Jean-Louis Guntz from the Cadre Noir riding my own mentor's horse, Leopold. As you can see, not overbent!! As far as training young horses are concerned, yes, they will drop behind the vertical, and should be encouraged to raise their noses and extend their necks. This does not mean to get them to achieve 'ramener', that comes much, much later, but to prevent them from sitting on the hand and setting their shoulders. However, now and again a youngster will need to get their balance by sitting on the hand, and that is usually because they are going too fast to keep their own balance. If they are encouraged to slow down, then they can normally sort themselves out. I also agree wholeheartedly with the poster who suggests that some horses cannot comfortably achieve on the vertical because of their conformation. I'd far rather see a horse working correctly from behind, swinging through the back and relaxed in the jaw and poll, but in front of the vertical, than one who is compressed in the throat and neck but on the vertical.
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Post by sunnylynn11 on Dec 17, 2008 19:26:31 GMT 1
My instructor is always ranting about "behind the vertical", it gets her really cross, unfortuantely it seems that more and more see it as "correct"
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Post by jennyb on Dec 17, 2008 19:27:48 GMT 1
Yay! Leopold!
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Post by Catrin on Dec 17, 2008 19:45:50 GMT 1
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Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Trouble on Dec 17, 2008 22:50:16 GMT 1
I worry myself about this far too much....I have started to obsess over it as Snip is young and green and he will tuck his nose in as he tries to lift though his front....eventually I can get it but when he gets stressed he naturally tends to do this... (oh, and yes I know I need to learn to look up and shorten my reins to move my hands forwards! bad habits...) On this day he was so tense, due to the horrendous weather, and shortly after this he reared, a lot, badly, and totally threw his toys out the pram. Yet other days he goes more like this, but as this pic shows he's actually heavier on my hand (though I'm sure I don't normally pull like this, hate my hands in this pic) and not really listening... It seems to be my latest obsession and I think obsessing just makes the tension worse! So we've gone back a step or two to try and get things a bit better.
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Post by heather on Dec 17, 2008 22:56:59 GMT 1
Agree, hate to see this trend spreading worldwide, and judges clearly not being concerned, if the DVD between Christoph Hess and Philippe Karl is anything to go by! The former seemed to think that it was fine to train overbent and then on the day of the show, bring the horse 'up'! PK couldnt see the sense in this, why train one way, and then work another way when at a competition!
I agree 100% with jennyb, that there is far too much emphasis placed on tracking up, which some horses cannot do without falling on their forehands and running. Yes, I want impulsion and energy, but impulsion does not necessarily mean 'forwards'- huge impulsion is needed to perform piaffe, a trot on the spot!
I want to see the horse's joints flexing to produce more spring, and couldnt give a toss about 'tracking up' if the horse is moving within his own energy and natural pace. Once the flexion of the joints has been improved and enhanced, then you can push the trot out without the horse falling on his shoulders, and this much desired 'tracking up' can be achieved!!
The way in which Roz is riding, would be far more conducive to this, with a little help and plenty of transitions/ transitions from rein back, and of course lateral work in walk. The GP rider will still be hammering the horse round with head up a**e in a couple of years time if she persists in riding him like this!
Ah, Jean Louis Guntz ;D I saw him ride in the indoor school at Saumur, 17 years ago and was mightily impressed. I have seen him several times since, and he is still one of my very favourite riders.
Heather
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Post by heather on Dec 17, 2008 23:05:30 GMT 1
Hi Trouble,
Lovely horse btw!!There seems to be a lot of tension on the reins in all the photos. Your hands are too far apart to be able to have a 'feeling' contact. My old trainer, Capt Desi Lorent, used to say 'You are tractor driving'!!!
These photos show exactly what I was just describing in my last post, rider striving for 'tracking up' and driving the horse onto his shoulders!! In all of the photos, you appear to be dropping your right shoulder too- and your inside hand is lowered- I would teach you to raise the inside hand and lower the outside, which is what both my German and French school trainers taught me.
Your leg position is very good and looks to be nice and quiet. You just need someone to guide you both in the right direction! Whereabouts are you?
Heather
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Post by gemmamarygold on Dec 17, 2008 23:09:31 GMT 1
The following picture shows whjat I mean about Marygold going along with her nose poked out. It's not a great picture as we were just playing on the beach - hence the long reins! She is dropping on the forehand a bit, but this is the starting point from which we're starting. I don't often post pictures for critique so be nice! We've a lot of work to do, to get her engaging her tummy muscles and start using her backend properly. But I would much sooner see a picture like this than one of horse with their head on their chest. You can see that the horse doesn't look comfortable. How does cranking the horse's head into the chest sit with the scale of training?
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Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Trouble on Dec 17, 2008 23:13:49 GMT 1
Thank you! Yes he was misbehaving so badly that I was tense, also it was so cold I was stiff as a board! lol...but yes another of my bad habits is to drop that shoulder, it has been like that ever since breaking my neck a few years ago (a lot of years ago now) when I'm tense it gets worse as I'm so busy focusing on staying on than anything else! lol. Hands - hmmm, it's something I'm working on, I tend to let my reins get low and long, and then end up having to widen them to compensate - when I'm schooling at home I can correct it, but in comp situations it just comes right back. Only thing I would disagree with is driving for tracking up! He naturally over tracks by too much and I've been trying to bring it back a bit as he does forge slightly. On this day I don't think I dare touch his sides with my legs as he was explosive!!! He has a slight tendancy to rear *sigh* But yes, other than that you are spot on, all his tension his in his shoulders (with and without a rider) and all of mine is in my shoulders and arms. We're getting there (these aren't the best pics to show it due to the weather/situation) but bad habits are so hard to break! ....hence my slight obsession with all the faults... This is one of us at home (note my dropped right shoulder and hands wide, low and too far back again!) this one I think ha less tension on reins but he's still overbending. He used to have a real 'broken neck' look, I've gradually improved that but we still have some work. Edited to add...I'm just below Peterborough.
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Post by heather on Dec 17, 2008 23:33:50 GMT 1
Ha, last pic is much nicer, Trouble, and clearly a much warmer day!! Yes he is btv, but I would not worry about it in this pic. If he has a tendency to overtrack, then I would slow the pace and make him take a shorter step. You would find that he will come up with head and neck as it is nigh on impossible to take a shorter higher step and lower the neck and come btv!!
Raise your hands a little higher as you do so. Work in plenty of transitions- does he do rein back? It is so underused in this country, and actually in the German system in general, as a means of getting the horse off the shoulders and the weight back. How old is he and what breeding? He is a very nice horse indeed!
Your own riding in that last photo shows a lot of potential. You are not actually dropping your right shoulder to any degree!!- and position overall is very nice. You are looking down to the inside, which tends to put more weight to that side, the head is very heavy, and the horse can feel any transfer of weight! Again, I would like to see your hands much closer together. If you were looking up, hands about 4 inches apart, there would be very little else wrong with your own position!
Heather
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Post by heather on Dec 17, 2008 23:36:08 GMT 1
And Gemma, horses that go like Marygold are the easy ones to educate!! I never have a problem with one that is above the bit- the ones that have been ridden behind it for any length of time, take miles more skill and time to correct! Great pic, you really look as though having fun, the pair of you!!
Heather
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Post by lisap on Dec 18, 2008 1:06:58 GMT 1
Not only was I also mightily impressed with Jean-Louis's riding, but as he is one of Francois's closest friends I was lucky enough to spend some time at Saumur watching him training Francois's horse, and then spend an evening with him. He has the kindest eyes I think I've ever seen and is so gentle in his manner. And so humble about his career and achievements. It was a delightful evening, made even nicer when Jean-Louis and my husband discovered a shared passion for fishing.
I am very much hoping to invite him over to the UK at some point in the future.
Interestingly, one of his comments was that an expert fisherman and good rider have 2 things in common - the sensitivity of the hand, and endless patience!
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Post by circusdancer on Dec 18, 2008 1:27:16 GMT 1
This is one of the best threads for a long time, people putting up photos and accepting genuine guidance, well done Lisap for creating it, Roz for instigating it and the experts for keeping it so balanced.
Trouble, it's amazing how little shetlands mature into such elegant creatures, your horse is gorgeous. I still remember the photos of your little fella on the decking. Do you still have him?
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Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Trouble on Dec 18, 2008 9:14:49 GMT 1
LOL Circus Dancer...I do indeed still have him, he is 15 now and still going strong with 2 little loaners who dote on him and spoil him rotten! If only the big guy would behave as well as the little 'un!!
Heather, thank you! Yes that last pic is a better example of how we work at home when things go right, plenty of problems to work on but generally a relaxed picture.
He does do rein back, sometimes, though I have to be very careful how I use it at the moment as he is a very backwards thinking horse at times and predisposed to rearing...always has been, so I have to make sure he's very loose and forward before we try it, he's getting there, he went a whole summer without a single rear this year....and has now taken several steps back for the winter! Typical.
As for me, the upper half has taken a back seat as I've had to work so hard to develop a good seat so as to sit whatever he throws at me, he has a hell of a buck!! I think I do have a good stable leg these days but purely as it keeps me the safest!!!
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Post by heather on Dec 18, 2008 10:13:44 GMT 1
Well Lisa, if you get J-L over to the UK, do please let me know well in advance so that I can book time to come and watch!! I saw him again last year in Paris, and he stood out a mile as a rider, above the rest of the Cadre Noir. I can never understand why so many of their riders have rather loose and very mediocre seats, in comparison. J-L was riding a horse that I can only describe as a passage machine!! I doubt any of the other riders could have sat to his movement, for a start!
I was sorting out the spare room yesterday and just happened to glance into the bookcase, and a book I was given by a Cadre Noir representative, that first time I visited Saumur, (I was writing an article for Riding magazine at the time) was lying on its side and on top of the other books. I picked it up, and the first photo I came across was Jean Louis! Coincidence that I later popped in here to see this thread and whose photo should be on LisaP's avatar?
Heather
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