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Post by jennyb on Dec 18, 2008 10:33:32 GMT 1
Francois is very funny about Leopold. I remember in your lounge Lisa, when he was showing photos of Invasor I think, and then flicking over to a photo of Leopold and saying "Look, my horse has much better movement, he is much better than Invasor" ;D ;D
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Post by lisap on Dec 18, 2008 11:11:39 GMT 1
Yes, no false modesty from Francois.... On the subject of fantastic riding, Francois states flatly that the new generation of Cadre Noir riders and performances are decidedly inferior to when he and Jean-Louis Guntz started there together. He gives that gallic eye rolling sigh whenever he sees the horses perform the airs above the ground not in perfect synchronisation. "That wouldn't have been allowed in my day". Jean-Louis has just retired from the Cadre Noir after 43 years. He holds the record as the longest serving member of the CR, which is probably why his riding is head and shoulders above the younger members. Of course, Francois, Jean-Louis Guntz and Philippe Karl all share the same heritage and training, and it is fascinating to see their educated hands lifting up where the majority of us pull our hands downwards. For example, when a horse goes above the bridle, our instinct is to try to hold the horse's head down by lowering and fixing our hands. Their solution is to raise their hands and follow the horse's head about instead. Amazingly, the horse almost immediately quiets, extends its neck and flexes its poll. I am using this technique all the time with young horses now, with very nice, soft results. As Jenny mentioned earlier, the French Classical school is all about balance and correct work from back to front. This means that in the beginning the position of the head and neck is only important as to how the horse is using it to balance. As the horse learns to move its weight backwards towards the hindquarters in order to carry the rider, the neck and head naturally come into an outline that is correct for that particular horse. As far as impulsion is concerned, I agree 100% with Heather and Jenny, and also with the poster who complains that she sees too many horses not going forward! Again, we are looking to create the desire within the horse to think forward, and that is done by improving balance, generating strength through correct exercise and work, and creating confidence in the horse's mind through consistent and sensitive riding. Yes, it takes longer, but good foundations are harder to spoil and will support a building for hundreds of years, while shoddy, incorrectly laid foundations will result in shoring up, slippage and perhaps near collapse of the entire structure, leading to lots of scaffolding to hold the whole thing up. Now, if only I could ride even a quarter as well as one of Jean-Louis's eyelashes, I could even practice what I preach!
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Post by jennyb on Dec 18, 2008 11:16:33 GMT 1
Now, if only I could ride even a quarter as well as one of Jean-Louis's eyelashes, I could even practice what I preach! I'm watching you Mrs P, I remember your threat to sell all of our souls in order to ride as well as Francois!
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Post by Roz on Dec 18, 2008 14:15:19 GMT 1
Heather many thanks for your comments, you have given me food for thought.
Circusdancer I totally agree with you, this has turned into a great thread, so many ideas exchanged and insights.
A little update, I had a lesson last night on Centy with my normal instructor, and we both had a real lightbulb moment, I was so chuffed! Centy was taking me forward rather than shortening up and evading. We did a wonderful exercise that really seemed to help which involved, trotting along the long (and short sides) but half halting and walking just before the corner, flexing your horse to the inside (using seat and legs, but not hands) giving with the inside rein just after you came out of the corner and then trotting on again. Centy was so off my leg and became so soft and started to really swing through his back.
By the end of the lesson he was trotting round with a beautifully soft mouth, stretching down and swinging so beautifully through is back it brought tears to my eyes.
I tried to maintain an independent seat, soften my upper leg and keep my hands up and look straight ahead. It definitely helped, I wish I had pictures from the lessons, but unfortunately dont'!
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Post by heather on Dec 18, 2008 15:15:56 GMT 1
But you know, that is just it Lisa, it doesnt take longer! It is far quicker!! I was riding a lovely warmblood x TB mare at our Christmas 'do' the weekend before last. She is coming in for a month's schooling next month. He owner is a fantastic lady- has 17 nearly all homebred horses and does them all herself- before leaving for work at 7am!! One is bound for Badminton next year- she doesnt ride them herself, backs them and brings them on and then turns them over to a professional.
But this mare was one she didnt breed- and has evented and show jumped with one of the professional riders she uses, but the mare was constantly being marked down for being on the forehand.
I asked her owner to ride her first and I could see what the judges meant. Her owner is a nice quiet rider, but was stuck when it came to getting the shoulders up.
I got on having changed her to a working equitation pelham with just an elastic curb chain. Every time she leaned on my hands, I lifted the reins, bringing the elastic curb into contact and causing her to lift her head. Each time, this was backed up a split second later, with the leg. I would then ask with my fingers for her to relax the lower jaw, and also slowed the stride down with my seat in rising trot.
Within minutes, the mare was moving completely differently. I could virtually throw the reins away, in lovely self carriage, and her whole stride having elevation and cadence. It was bliss to sit to, even with her very big movement, because she was moving so 'through' in my interpretation of the word- ie, not running like a headless chicken! Her owner was astonished, and it had all taken about 15 minutes! She will go back in the snaffle as soon as she is established in self carriage. I hope to have some pics when she is here next month, so will put them up, in the hope of showing what I mean!!
But using the French methods, I do this time and again with horses at demos and clinics that I have never seen before, and people are amazed at how quickly the whole horse seems to change. When he is allowed to move without the front end being restricted, it is surprising what happens!!
Heather
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Post by lisap on Dec 18, 2008 15:35:10 GMT 1
You are, of course, absolutely right Heather. I think that what I mean by taking longer is the patience to allow the horse to develop according to its own level of strength. You can force a horse to be overbent very quickly and to get the 'roundness' immediately. To get a young, or weak horse to maintain self-carriage is going to take a little longer and requires patience on the behalf of the rider. You can get fantastic, soft, balanced results immediately using the French technique, but it will take the horse a while to develop the correct musculature to carry itself with ease all of the time. Does that make any kind of sense?
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Post by jennyb on Dec 18, 2008 15:39:22 GMT 1
Hmm, I do think proper education and schooling does take longer in some circumstances Heather. Look at Gazdag - most "competition" riders would have had him backed and competing months ago, but with me he has spent months on the ground being educated, fittened and suppled, and is now slowly beginning his education under saddle. I'm only on his back for max 20 mins at a time, mostly in walk, doing simple turns, transitions, etc, and on Tuesday he did two steps of rein back and a few steps of leg yield for the first time. I think starting them from absolute scratch the classical way does take longer, but I agree that teaching an already "educated" horse to go in a different way can be quite quick with the right rider.
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Post by jennyb on Dec 18, 2008 15:39:57 GMT 1
Crossed posts with Lisa, sorry!
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Lisanw
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Post by Lisanw on Dec 18, 2008 16:20:51 GMT 1
Jenny - don't you think, though that that is because they aren't going correctly most of the time with modern competition type approaches? Rather than that they ahve got there quicker (because they haven't actually got there!)
Lisa
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Post by jennyb on Dec 18, 2008 16:53:28 GMT 1
And therein lies the rub Lisa! Yes, they get "there" quicker, and I agree that they are not "there" according to classical principles. But they can get rewarded at even the highest levels of competition having skipped levels in their training if the horse is talented enough to still go "well" despite poor training. So for a competition orientated rider, how do you tell them that they are not "there" and that their training should have taken longer, when they have the ribbons, trophies and scores to "prove" that their training was fine? Hence going back to my earlier point that competitive dressage needs a big shake up, so that people realise through their scores that cutting corners and using gadgets instead of patience and skill is not ok.
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Jaydurh
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Post by Jaydurh on Dec 18, 2008 16:55:14 GMT 1
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Amanda Seater
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Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 18, 2008 17:10:11 GMT 1
Jaydurh- that is a horrid photo- talk about agressive use of the curb and a Freisian as well - for heavens sake you don't need to do that with any horse let alone a Friesian - GRRRR not art in any way shape or form.
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Jaydurh
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Post by Jaydurh on Dec 18, 2008 18:26:12 GMT 1
Tell me about it, It's not my photo or horse thank god. I just found it looking for pictures to put in a manip.
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Dec 18, 2008 21:18:52 GMT 1
Heather I could hug you! (if you didn't live so far away!) I have become so dissillusioned lately as I try so hard but have been stuck in a real rut....everything you said was stuff I already knew, but just having someone say it in the way you did inspired me a little bit and I had the best ride tonight that I've had in about 6 weeks....
A bad start, he didn't want to go forwards at all and was kicking up at my legs (a habit he's always had when he's in a strop, have had everything checked and nothing physically wrong...just attitude!) but once he gave up his tantrum and let me put my leg on his side we managed some really nice work, probably more on the forehand than we usually are but he was actually listening to my seat, I was more conscious of my dropped right shoulder and was able to keep that straighter (I think!) my hands were much better and after about 20 mins I was managing a really nice slower than slow trot - probably not enough impulsion, but impulsion is usually excessive with him anyway so not a bad thing to lose a bit some times...
I was managing to get such a slow trot it was almost walk pace, and he wasn't trying to lean on me like he usually does, when he did try I just raised my inside hand a little a nd 'thought' flex, rather than actually flexing the inside rein and he lightened again.
I think we had the closest thing to self carriage than we've had before, even though he may have looked more on the forehand and poky nosed than he normally does....it was so much nicer to ride!
I've had the feeling before, but not for a while, and I'm now more inspired again! woohoo! Just a perfect wake up call in the middle of a long dark winter on stuck in a rut.
So, thank you....couldn't agree more this is a great thread!
And sorry, just realised you asked a question, Snip is 5/12 yrs old, breeding is WBxISH...though I have no idea of his breeding lines. I bought hi cheap from a dealer as a skinny 3 year old. He'd been running in a herd in Ireland, untouched, was shipped over as a 'job lot' and sold to a dealer. He was a nightmare to handle when I first got him, I've nearly given up a few times as he just kept breaking me (ribs broken within a week of owning him and can't remember the last time at least one of my toes wasn't broken!) But he's so loving these days, a real people horse. I just need to fully cure the rearing, bucking and napping now!
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Post by heather on Dec 18, 2008 23:23:16 GMT 1
Oh, BRILLIANT Trouble!! ;D
If he is leaning on your hands- or just coming too low, lift them up sharply, but without being rough(don't give them forwards- but of course, never with any backward traction either!- just straight up) to make him raise his head, then back it up with your leg, but hold him with your seat, so that you still prevent too much forward and not enough upward movement. When I say 'hold him with your seat'- how would you, for instance, do a downward transition, say from sitting trot to walk? Can you describe what you would do in a downward transition?
Heather
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