kofihorse
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Oh,such a perfect day, I'm glad I spent it with you
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Post by kofihorse on Jun 23, 2007 7:37:54 GMT 1
I thought that trotters didn't do it on the diagonal? Thought they used both legs same side? Or is that called pacing?
Lovely pics,BTW, (better not let Rafferty see them or he'll be badgering me to let him have a go at it. )
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 23, 2007 15:18:26 GMT 1
The pacers are both legs on the same side in a lateral gait.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 24, 2007 1:24:56 GMT 1
Hi Kofihorse and all,
Great posts again, from Sue in particular! Having already managed to upset one poster this week with my "slighty alternative view of the world", I'd just firstly like to point out that I agree with everything you said ;D
I also remembered a couple of concepts which I found incredibly useful when learning to "post" to the trot, so I thought I'd repeat them here in case anyone might find them helpful.
Like Sue, I prefer to use the term "posting" rather than rising, as I think it helps get the idea across quite well. According to legend, folklore or perhaps even an actual book that I haven't actually managed to find yet, "posting" to the trot was invented by the postillions who rode on the lead horses of the old stagecoaches.
These horses trotted at high speed for miles on end every day and were bred for pulling loads like this rather than being easy to sit. The poor old postillions had to learn either to follow with the seat incredibly well or to stand in "two-point" position. Eventually they became too exhausted to do either and "posting" became a way of doing something halfway in between the two where the energy that "lifted" the rider from the saddle was provided by the push of the horse's legs rather than the rider's.
The second idea comes from the discovery that, although it appears that the saddle is going "up and down" at the trot, it's actually that the horse's back is really going "down and back up", if you see what I mean.
The way it was explained to me is that a good way to save wear and tear on the horse and the rider is to have your body "hovering" along above the ground as you both trot along together. A very soft and flexible action of the legs and ankles then allows the rider to absorb the movement of the horse as he drops away from you and then comes back up to meet you.
If you've ever been skiing at speed over moguls you'll have a good model for this. If not, well, I'll need to think of another way of explaining it, lol ;D Basically, you can imagine floating along and having your ankles, knees and thigh muscles extremely soft the whole time. Once you are up and going, the thing that keeps "lifting" you out of the saddle isn't the action of your leg muscles as if the horse was standing still, but the thrust of the horse's movement which is almost all (but not quite completely) absorbed by your legs. Obviously, this is only something you can try once you've got past the beginning stages at walk where you'll have to use your own legs to "rise".
A good way to start to get the feel of this is to "stand" to the trot with your knees bent and then relax the thighs, knees and ankles to the point where you feel your body stops bouncing up and down. You'll probably notice that your lower legs are going up and down a bit like pistons attached to the sides of the horse at this point. Once you've got the hang of this then you can allow yourself to lightly touch the saddle every second beat.
It's one of those weird things that you'll know when you've got right, because the horse will start moving extremely smoothly and comfortably and you'll feel like you are floating on a cushion of air. You'll also be able to do it for hours on end without your leg muscles screaming! As Sue said, you don't want to move much out of the saddle at all and you'll be safer in case of any "unscheduled direction changes" and cause less disturbance to the balance of your horse the smaller you can make it. There are some great shots of Philippe Karl posting very well on his DVDs.
Have fun playing!
Derek
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 24, 2007 3:03:36 GMT 1
You're right Derek and Sue.... having ridden both standardbred trotting and pacing racehorses under saddle at top speeds I can vouch that my butt very seldom touched the saddle.. hence the name "rising trot" I believe? Yes, your feet and legs absorb most or all of the shock and motion of the horse and your butt and upper body should not be moving at all if you are riding properly in the correct position. The picture underneath is that of a pacer under saddle as I couldn't find one of a trotter.. but it is the same idea just a different gait. The body takes on the same position.
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kofihorse
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Oh,such a perfect day, I'm glad I spent it with you
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Post by kofihorse on Jun 24, 2007 7:29:46 GMT 1
Thanks for that information,Derek! I discovered this myself when Kofi first did his extended Arab trot - it feels wonderful! The only difficulty for a not-so-good rider like me is to keep within the pace, as bottom off the saddle does sometimes indicate to horse to go faster LOL
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Post by suewhitmore on Jun 24, 2007 8:57:00 GMT 1
The position that is illustrated in CanadianTrotter's (lovely) photograph of pacers is nothing like the correct basic posting or rising trot position. It is akin to the position taken at the gallop. In a correct post/ride in *working* trot, both the time in and *out* of the saddle is momentary. The reason gaits such as a racing extended trot, pace and gallop are ridden out of the saddle is that firstly, as Kofihorse has noticed, the release from the rider's weight bearing directly on the back allows the horse swing forward much more rapidly. The second reason is that at these sort of speeds, the "twist" in the horse's pelvis as it leaps between each set of diagonals, or changes laterals in the pace, is so rapid that it is almost impossible sit the movment. This very short clip shows the classical trainer Emma Thomas riding my young stallion Uranio in a working trot. At the time this was taken, April, he had only been under saddle for two months. This is a correctly ridden working trot on a young horse, and is to my mind, nothing like the suspended seat of a racing trot. My intention in posting these threads has been to help people with really basic riding skills, the sort that can be achieved, if taught correctly, in the first very few weeks of riding, not to confound them with philosophical discussion of skills and techniques that take years to understand, never mind ride.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 24, 2007 9:12:11 GMT 1
Hi again,
Very cool pics, CT!
Kofihorse said:
Kofihorse - I used to have that problem too in the beginning. I can't guarantee this is the solution without seeing you, but there's a fair chance this will help.
When posting, assuming that the rider isn't relying on the horse's mouth for balance in any way, he/she will be balanced over his/her own feet. In addition, you need to take into account the overall picture of how the rider is balanced relative to the forehand/haunches of the horse. If the rider is "standing" nearer the forehand, it tends to make the horse go quicker while if nearer the haunch it tends to slow the horse. If you overbalance too much to the front though it can also make the horse stop since it's forehand gets "nailed" to the ground!
This means that the rider must develop the ability to bring the human feet back under the body, rather than moving the human body forward over the feet - if you see what mean. Once you have the basic position sorted, then you can control the speed of the trot in a more subtle way by using your weight as a secondary aid - allowing the (human) weight to be a little more on the balls of the feet (for lengthened trot) or sinking down into very relaxed heels (to shorten).
Depending in the rider's suppleness, you might find getting the feet under you easy or hard. I certainly found it much easier to do if I ride in the french "outdoor" method with the back/inside of my calves in contact with the "underside" of the horse's flanks and the hips and knees very "open" (toes pointing out at about 45 degrees). It's also a very good way to increase one's "stickability" in the saddle when riding cross country as opposed to high school where the feet are parallel to the horse's body and the calves are off the horse to allow more refinement of the leg aids.
You can test the foot position by going to trot and then just inclining the body ever so slightly forwards. If your feet are underneath you, you'll start posting almost like magic without any further effort. If you need to "climb" out of the saddle, then your feet are probably ahead of you. The more your feet are under you, the less you need to incline forward.
Hope this helps,
Best wishes,
Derek
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Post by heather on Jun 24, 2007 11:44:07 GMT 1
Emma's position in that shot above at the sit phase is spot on. Her pelvis is slightly forward of the vertical and ready to be propelled forwards and only upwards, as much as the horse's propulsion dictates. If you are on a small moving horse this will be minimal,and the upper body will remain in a position slightly in advance of the vertical the movement, but if on a huge moving warmblood, will propel you right over the pommel, when the upper body will become upright. Even with a big moving horse, the pelvis should always still land in the saddle at the angle shown by Emma here. That way the rider will never be behind the movement. I agree Derek, that it should feel as though you are merely floating back and forth, that there should be no effort on the part of the rider, and yes, it was invented by postillions for the reasons you explain. What I cant understand therefore, is where this idea that the rider should sit upright in the sit phase of the posting trot comes from. I note that several well known trainers teach this awful thrusting lark, which defeats the object of the rising trot absolutely, that of making it less tiring for both horse and rider, and to free the horse's back of weight! Short of feeding students on baked beans , I cannot for the life of me see how this thrusting creates impulsion ;D. One trainer whose books I admired greatly until I saw him teach, insists on wanting to see the rider's head/hat going up and down in rising trot, whereas in my book, I wrote that I could tell if riders hacking past my farm were rising correctly or not, just by their heads above the hedge! If the head remains more or less level, they were rising correctly, if going up and down, I would know they were heaving themselves out of the saddle and locking/unlocking the knee! Is it any wonder riders get confused? I have a very good way of proving the rising trot to any person who argues that the riders pelvis should land with seatbones pointing down, and the rider then thrusting furiously to catch up with the movement again. I get them to put their hand under the back of the saddle whilst I ride the simulator in rising trot. I rise and sit thrusting the pelvis, landing, pelvis upright. The hand is squashed. I then rise and sit, with upper body inclined slightly forwards, pelvis also slightly forwards on landing, pelvis making an arc forwards and back. The hand remains unsquashed, and the person on the end of it, can hardly feel my 11 stone touch down in the saddle!It is usually enough to convince even the most hardened advocate of the thrusting method! I just wish we could have stored the moving pressure patterns from our computerised pressure testing of my treeless saddles, as well as a number of other treeless and treed makes for comparison. I did the testing, as much as anything to obtain confirmation of what I had always believed in that there is only one biomechanical way in which the rider can achieve total ease of synchronisation with the horse, and that this would enable a deep but also very light seat. The pressure testing proved me right- I could easily tell exactly how the rider was absorbing the movement by the pressure patterns, or in rising trot, whether rising correctly or incorrectly. There were huge differences in the pressure readings, and I would love to have been able to keep them to use in lectures etc, but the damn software expires after a month and gives no way of storing it! Only way was to buy the pressure testing equimpment so that it was always there to use, but at £20,000 ir was way out of my budget! Heather
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 24, 2007 14:59:31 GMT 1
My intention in posting these threads has been to help people with really basic riding skills, the sort that can be achieved, if taught correctly, in the first very few weeks of riding, not to confound them with philosophical discussion of skills and techniques that take years to understand, never mind ride. My sincere apologies... I will sit at the back of the class and just observe.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 24, 2007 17:26:44 GMT 1
Oh dear...! Sue, I do hope it wasn't me that has upset you! That was certainly not my intention and I apologise if I've caused any offence. The stuff I posted was actually what I was taught by Craig Stevens in my very first posting trot lesson on the lunge (about my second ever lesson with him). It was blended together with what you had described perfectly in your posting. These concepts helped me enormously and it took me about 10 minutes to get the idea. I've been very grateful for that beginning ever since! Best wishes, Derek
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Post by canadiantrotter on Jun 24, 2007 18:14:23 GMT 1
I am equally confused as Derek now that you have mentioned that Sue is upset, I didn't see or read anything in any of the posts that would upset anyone. I was under the impression of what Derek posted was the basics also because what he explained does not take years to understand or learn but 10-20 minutes. I should have mentioned that the picture of racing the pacer under saddle was more of an example of how the body should be held correctly in a "fast" or "high speed" trot or pace. If the jockey's in the image provided were only trotting slowly around the track then they would have assumed a position more akin to the one in the video of Emma Thomas. Plus they would not be in a galloping position as a pacer does not gallop in a race.. if the horse broke into a gallop it would be instantly disqualified.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 24, 2007 18:23:27 GMT 1
Hi CT, Ah, good point. Sue might not be upset at all and I might be imagining that. P'raps we'd better wait and see what she says! Oh the joys of discussion groups, where we only get access to 7% of the normal human communication signals... Looking forward to us all being (or continuing to be!) friends again... ;D Derek
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Post by heather on Jun 24, 2007 18:50:33 GMT 1
I am sure she wasnt upset Derek, Sue is like me, a bit plain spoken, but not liable to take umbrage, and we are both old enough to have developed thick skins anyway!! ;D
Heather
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 24, 2007 18:55:34 GMT 1
Thanks for that, Heather. I do hope that's the case. But how could either of you have thick skin at only 21? Derek
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Post by heather on Jun 24, 2007 19:02:15 GMT 1
Ooooooo you old soaper- NOW who's doing the wowing!! ;D ;D
Heather
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