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Post by clipclop on Dec 7, 2012 13:22:28 GMT 1
But, I go to a lot of yards to teach clients and hear about their problems and see for myself the problems that others have. And i read this forum and read about the problems that people are having - on mostly DIY yards it must be said, although, of course there are plenty of 'livery' yards where there is very poor organisation on the behalf of the YO. But - and I won't be swayed from this - I think that many people and places are more concerned with what they want for themselves and their own horse rather than what is best for the horses on the yard. And if that means a bit of inconvenience or compromise on behalf of individuals to ensure that the *horses* are happy and settled, then that is how it should be. Sorry Amanda, I've hijacked your thread!! I agree with this entirely. I do believe it is as likely to be the YO at fault as liveries though. It is very difficult imo to have a successful DIY yard where all horses go out at the same time and come in at the same time as there will always be occasions where one horse or two will need to stay in to be ridden or for the farrier etc. and it can cause more stress if they are used to such a strict routine. Likewise, box rest is made even more stressful. Horses need routine but not so strict that it causes stress if for some reason there is a change to it. I worked on a large full livery yard where because feed time was exactly the same time every day, after filling hay mangers and sweeping up. When you came out with the brooms to sweep up, the horses started kicking off because it was nearly tea time. It's difficult on diy as, for example, if the YO imposes a rule that says no-one is to leave a horse out on it's own, if a livery needs to go and get their horse in but the only other one still out is difficult to handle or can be flighty, why should they put themselves at risk? If there's a yard manager, it should be a case of informing them so they can get the horse in. Would insurance cover it if someone the owner didn't know was getting their horse in and something happened such as the friend of another livery? Likewise, you will always get someone who pushes the boundaries - they don't like having to trudge down the field in the wind and rain so will purposely not arrive at the yard til late, knowing someone will have got their horse in for them. You need a YO to be on top of the situation and prevent any issues. My horses are such an established herd that it causes as many issues as it solves unfortunately - when living out in the summer I can bring one or two in from the field as desired to work or take to shows etc and they are fine with it. However, once winter kicks in and they are stabled part of the time, they get extremely stressed if they aren't all together. If one needs to stay in for the vet etc, I have to leave them all in and vice versa.
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lc
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Post by lc on Dec 7, 2012 20:43:24 GMT 1
Ok so you haven't had a bad livery but go on hearsay. Fair enough my experience of full livery ended up in the death of my horse my experience! They turned her out with the wrong herd and she got kicked and broke her leg. My experience is they do things on the cheap and don't really give a dam about the horse or owner. There is one livery yard bearish me that is good is an Ra's but is far too expensive for me do for me to keep my horse safe and well looked after its DIY all the way.
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Amanda Seater
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Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
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Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 7, 2012 21:10:22 GMT 1
jees guys - I didn't post for an argument! just wondering how I could be understood! There is nothing wrong with not wanting offer DIY. I have had one particular DIY in the past that left me severely out of pocket - my choice to spend the money but it was a welfare situation otherwise.
lc I am sorry for your experience - but please don't tar everyone with the same brush Accidents do happen. Here I do things for the well being of the horse as a first priority and then to help the owner enjoy thier horse. I have lost two horses to vets now and nearly third this summer I don't tar them all withthe same brush but I do show caution and choose with care.( eeven that dosn't always work)
It is worth remembering that owners and YO alike we can all make misjudgements.
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Post by clipclop on Dec 7, 2012 21:13:35 GMT 1
Very sorry to hear your experience lc.
Thankfully, most full livery yards aren't like that.
The ones I worked on have been extremely well run and every effort made to make both the horse and owner happy.
Sadly, some places however look for cheap rather than experienced staff which is where problems seem to arise.
The best questions to ask if enquiring about full livery on an established yard are what the turnover of both liveries and staff are like as that can say a lot.
Sent from my ST18i using proboards
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lc
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Post by lc on Dec 7, 2012 22:04:07 GMT 1
I'm not wanting an argument either but as you say you can't tar everyone with the same brush and that goes for DIY too! No there isn't anything wrong in not wanting DIY but not every Livery yard is better than a DIY yard. I would expect people on this forum to provide a better level of care in a livery yard than is the standard. And going on the standard of livery yards near me as I say the standard of care your horse receives is poor to say the least. The death of my pony wasn't an accident it was negligence. We had split my pony and the other dominant mare as they were regularly coming in injured so why they decided to put her out with this mare and her mates after 3 months god only knows.
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Amanda Seater
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Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
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Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 7, 2012 22:35:12 GMT 1
I think you may find I am not taring all DIY - I have though found from experience that it can be difficult and I don't want DIY here as well as DIY not being financially viable for me. They would be paying less rent per box and the local rate than I am!! I have had good and bad DIY but collegues with DIY yards do seem to be under much pressure - sometimes I think is it becuase they care for teh horses. I also know farmers who have large DIY yards and they don't know horses and just let everyone get on with it good or bad. It is when they get left with horses and no sign of the owners or any rent that problems start to occur for them but the horses have been suffering for longer. Some times the first they pay attention to an issue is when the RSPCA turn up.
As I say good or bad in both but don't judge me please for my choice of livery business. This place costs me a fortune it is for me to enjoy first and foremost - it is my home.
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lc
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Post by lc on Dec 7, 2012 23:14:22 GMT 1
Amanda I'm not saying you are tarring all Diy's, just there are posts on here that come across that way, whether they mean to or not. I would not dream of asking a known Full livery only yard for DIY unless they're struggling. There was one yard here that is and was offering DIY again but the yard owner is a nutter and gets though staff and liveries like no ones business ! One livery was late back from a show and the gates were locked and she was refused entry till the next morning, though after a scuffuffle I think she eventually let the livery in, obviously she left ASAP after that and took most of the other liveries with her! Or they use your stable to stable their horses while yours is left in the field and charge you for mucking out their horse, this happened all the time on one yard, so this is the level of care at some of the livery yards in my area and at £400- £450/ mth are not that cheap either. Lisa P is right it comes down to being in control, if you are running a yard and are a control freak it can be good but also bad, depending on your priorities, like wise I want control of my own horse and therefore full livery is not for me, but it does not mean, as inferred by some posts, that I am a bad horse owner and neglect my horse or only do what is convienient for me not her and ingnore all other horses because I don't! Unfortunately there are less and less yards offering DIY and I really do not know what i will do if I have to find another yard a few years down the line as I wouldn't want to go full livery, for me I've seen too many bad yards and have been bitten too badly by my own experience, hense I hope I can find some land at some point!
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Post by somanyhorses on Dec 9, 2012 20:16:23 GMT 1
"Like Amanda, we don't offer DIY at any price! Why not? Frankly, I can't bear seeing horses being fed ridiculous feeds or silly amounts, or stuffed up to the eyeballs with supplements that are completely unnecessary. Neither can I stand seeing horses with shoes hanging off because they can't afford the farrier every 5-6 weeks, or horses creeping around miserably because they are so footsore due to the owner being a barefoot fan, but not having the first idea as to what is involved in taking a horse barefoot. Neither can I stand seeing horses rugged up to the eyeballs and sweating, or shivering miserably because they "must shiver the weight off". Nor can I tolerate people who ignore every other horse on the yard except their own, and who think it is perfectly ok to feed their horse a titbit in the field without understanding that the others just might want to have one too, and who will walk past a horse that has a rug hanging off, or who looks poorly without a care in the world."
This has really shocked me. I totally understand why some yards do and others don't want to offer a DIY-style livery service. I can't see it being financially viable in most cases. But the bit that I've copied above shocks me to the core. I would expect all of those decisions to be entirely the horse owner's and NOT the yard owner's. I have had some of my horses on DIY, some on part, some on full and some on schooling livery over the years but have always been the one to decide whether my horses were shod and if so when, what they were fed, including supplements,what rugs they wear, and whether I gave them treats/titbits. I don't agree with having fat horses, I don't agree with horses being uncomfortable, I don't agree with overrugging horses and I think most people shoul dtry to think about other horses on the yard a lot more than they do, but that doesn't mean a yard owner can make such decisions on behalf of the owners UNLESS the owners WANT the YO to do so.
To remain on-topic, though, I think the OP has been perfectly clear and am struggling to see how the neighbours can misinterpret her response !
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Post by somanyhorses on Dec 9, 2012 20:21:22 GMT 1
"and who will walk past a horse that has a rug hanging off, or who looks poorly without a care in the world." In my experience DIyers are much more likely to assist with such cases than people who are on Full llivery, as full liveries tend to think everything is the YO's responsability and they wouldn't even think of dealing with somebody else's horse's rugs. After all, they shouldn't even have to deal with their OWN horse's rugs hanging off as the yard owner should be on the case before the owner even got there ;-) Only joking a bit but not entirely :-)
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Post by specialized on Dec 9, 2012 21:57:38 GMT 1
I have had one particular DIY in the past that left me severely out of pocket - my choice to spend the money but it was a welfare situation otherwise. Surely that is a risk whether diy or full livery - if they don't pay the problem is the same.
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Post by Mellymoo on Dec 9, 2012 22:51:34 GMT 1
"and who will walk past a horse that has a rug hanging off, or who looks poorly without a care in the world." In my experience DIyers are much more likely to assist with such cases than people who are on Full llivery, as full liveries tend to think everything is the YO's responsability and they wouldn't even think of dealing with somebody else's horse's rugs. After all, they shouldn't even have to deal with their OWN horse's rugs hanging off as the yard owner should be on the case before the owner even got there ;-) Only joking a bit but not entirely :-) I would say this is to do more with the owners, not the type of yard. On my yard, our YO does not have any liveries on who are b!tches or who she perceives may cause problems. We all help eachother and the horses if needed, and we all have rules so that all the horses get proper care. For example, no horse is ever to be left on its own, so today I fetched another horse in while my friend fetched hers in. It would not occur to any of us to ever break the rules, and not to treat everyone else's horses like our own. We are a family up there, and very lucky I know. Until people take responsibility and stop being selfish and petty, ultimately horses will suffer for it. Sad but true
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Post by jill on Dec 10, 2012 9:52:53 GMT 1
To get back to the point - Amanda, why can't you just say "No, and please don't ask again, my position won't change"? Then you will be free to be rude if they DO ask again, having put the point to them as politely as it is possible to be.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 12:06:16 GMT 1
I hear you re costs Amanda. I'd have LOVED to go to my current yard on assisted DIY but the YO rents the yard and can't make a viable business unless all the boxes are part liveries, so that's what we are. I chose the yard mainly because of the YO, because she really does care that the horses are properly cared for, but she doesn't dictate about feed, rugs, shoes, vets choices, instructors etc. I have to say though, she is a truly rare breed reound here ;D
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Amanda Seater
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Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
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Post by Amanda Seater on Dec 12, 2012 19:59:12 GMT 1
michellep- It is not about dictating on rugs or feed but when it come to welfare I have to act and advise such as feeding a small overwieght pony with lami issues a stubs scoop of mollassed coarse mix and complaining it is fizzy or lame Or a heavy weight rug on a horse which is obviously sweating etc I will not tolerate anyone beating any horse here either I will not see a horse in my care suffer.
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Post by mandal on Dec 13, 2012 1:26:01 GMT 1
Have they asked again yet?
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