Barefoot & struggling (long sorry!)

[seble]

Hi, I'm not a regular poster on here but a big lurker and take loads of advice from the wealth of knowledge you guys have on here.

But now I'm compelled to write a really long post as I'm feeling at my wits end. So apologies for the length of this.

My 13 yr old welsh cob mare has been barefoot since July 2010 but became clear there were metabolic issues that I had not been aware of for some time (my own lack of knowledge I'm ashamed to say) Since that time we've had a lot of ups and downs but until a couple of months ago we had been doing well, perfect weight, feet look great (although still very thin soles) and working ok in boots (just a happy hacker as we don't have a school ) however trimmer feels she will never be rock crunching and will always need boots for work.
In September Celyn had a big kicking match with a horse in the field (she's normally in her own grass bare paddock but one of the others got though the fence) he was shod all round . she suffered a cut to her near hind which healed well with honey heal,and looked stiff behind so had a couple of weeks off. Then she had a cough for a couple of weeks so only had a couple of gentle hacks out but she wasn't feeling "right."

Since that time the mud in her sloping field got ridiculous and her fence walking habit as soon as anyone arrived at the yard turned the fence line into a complete mud soup. Her hnd end movement was becoming increasingly worse when turning and she was becoming more careful with her front feet. She had some bowen therapy which she loved 2 weeks ago and I moved the electric fence up so she is not walking in the soup. Trimmer came on Saturday and said her feet were in the best shape they had ever been appearance wise but she was obviously in discomfort when turning.

To try to exclude any joint issues from the fight, I have had the vet out today. Did a full check including flexion test but his conclusion was that apart from a bit of tickening at the sight of the kick, he felt it was her feet (sensitive to hoof testers on all 4) and that the difference in her movement when in boots was dramatic albeit still not 100% in boots and pads. He felt there was nothing dietary going on but that the mud had basically eroded her already thin soles so much that they are now paper thin. He's a great vet but really didn't have any answers, could have X-rays but not totally necessary and would probably just tell us how thin her soles are as her white line is as tight as it can be so no indication of any rotation. Not practical to turn her out in boots as would be slippy on the slope and although not deep mud, would still be likely to fill with mud. The question of shoeing her was raised and he said it may relieve the symptoms its unlikely be a magic cure. Didnt feel bute a good idea as will just hide the cause unless i thought she was really struggling. He really said he wasn't sure what to do.

The only other thing to note is that I changed her from formula 4 feet and magnesium to forage plus winter balancer as i was conerned about the amount of iron in F4F. Changed over gradually starting about 2 weeks ago and now on full dose. She only got moved off the liquid mud on Saturday so I could just wait and see if she improves but I also have to question whether the change in balancer is having an impact. (She also has linseed, brewers yeast and yea sacc which I havnt changed)

Any suggestions, would you shoe (I am a barefoot convert but only if its right for the horse). The winter is only just starting and we'll have to compete with frozen ground soon. Just don't know what to do.

Again sorry so long but any suggestions gratefully received..

[rifruffian]

Is the horse comfortable to walk barefoot a substantial distance (miles) on a relatively smooth tarmac surface ?

[laurac]

Hi there

the only thing i can think of which may help is adding salt to the diet, (my vet oesteo recommended this to me)
this time of year there are potassium spikes in the grass and the potassium stops the absorbtion of magnesium and calcium, but adding sodium (salt) counteracts the potassiums bad effects
the attached link is quite long but very interesting!

www.greenpet.com.au/pages/Grass-Tetany-%26-Hyperkalemia-in-Horses.html

i noticed a massive difference in my horse when i ran out of salt for a few days a couple of weeks ago

best of luck sounds like you are doing everything you can x

MTA ive noticed my mini shetland is getting through his salt lick really really quickly at the moment so i think he is self medicating so to speak my big man never touches his licks so gets salt added to his feed

[janwilky]

Sorry you're struggling, but it sounds like you've got an open-minded vet who's prepared to admit when he's not sure what the best solution is. The only thing I can suggest is to give the Forageplus balancer a bit longer, as any dietary improvements to the sole growth are likely to take months rather than weeks. My two have been on minerals balanced to tested grass and hay (by Forageplus) for a year now and both horses have shown a lot of improvements to their feet, including the retired pony who had rubbish feet which are now looking pretty good. It's made a big difference to horn quality and white lines, so perhaps the winter balancer will help with your sole thickness too?

Also agree with adding salt. Might be worth adding biotin too? Sarah Braithwaite at Forageplus suggested that for our old pony because his feet grow very slowly and he used to get white line cavities that took for ever to grow out.

[bertie666]

Is she out on her own? Can she not have a field companion she gets on with?

The feet do sound like they need building up with pads and boots at the moment - and turnout onto gravel would be really beneficial as it would be drier as well as helping to stimulate the feet.

I agree with adding salt, it does make a big difference to many. Id carry on for now and if no change maybe put back on previous supp if the FP isnt agreeing with her.

[seble]

Thanks for replies everyone.
To answer a couple of things, she is ok but not great on the smooth concrete in our American barn but only on a straight line. When you turn her, her back feet "get stuck" and she doesn't want to step under herself. She does cross her back feet much better in her rubber matting stable. The lane the yard is on is half a mile of rocks, stones and pot holes before you get to any Tarmac which is half the reason why we went barefoot in the first place, so I could put boots on as she was getting bruises with shoes on (now I know the diet was half the reason for the bruising!)
There is salt in the balancer and I do give her extra (forgot to mention that) another 10ml scoop per day but I could increase it.

Interesting about the biotin, I was a bit concerned that there wasn't any in the balancer. She did have really good hoofngrowth before all this, in fact the rate they were growing we were going to move her to 5 weekly trims from 6, but since she has had less exercise she went 7 weeks before she showed any signs of growing anything so she went 8 weeks between trims and there was still very little growth when trimmer came. But saying that she was on the biotin in the f4f for most of that time. I will speak to Sarah about that though.
Unfortunately no one on the yard wants to keep their horse on such a small grass restricted turnout, she has got another horse in next to her but I do hate her being on her own. And unfortunately no chance of gravel etc turnout we only have mud mud and more mud, YO not willing to put down any surface. The vet wasn't adverse to her being ridden or walked in hand in her boots to give her exercise as long as comfortable so I will take her out in hand but will have to at weekends only due to dark nights.

Vet is great but says unfortunately half the problem is the awful weather this year, says he has seen so many lame horses.

Thanks all.
X

[ladyndibs]

I'm no expert but what I have read seems to suggest that there is often a need for additional magnesium, copper and zinc, also as already mentioned salt.
My arab's feet really suffered even during the summer last year whenever the ground was wet but despite them being wet 24/7 atm they seem to be doing much better.

[lisap]

First of all I am not setting out to be provocative or dismissive, but my take on this is similar to what I am seeing time, and time and time again.
The horse is not in work.
The horse is standing in wet ground all the time.
Every time the horse comes in 'not right' the solution is never work, but therapy.

My advice? Shoe the horse and put her into regular work, ie being ridden every day for at least an hour. This can be all at walk if necessary. If at all possible get her stabled overnight to give the feet a chance to dry out a bit.
After six months of regular work where the horses' muscular/skeletal system has had a chance to do its job and the horse is working fit, then take off the shoes and start to condition the foot towards barefoot.
I feel that you are trying to tackle too many forest fires at present, and need to prioritise what needs to happen in order to give your horse the best chance of success.

We severely underestimate the amount of movement that a horse requires in order to be well in itself, and much of the lameness we are seeing is because horses are in such soft condition that they cannot work well. We have to often quietly persevere with work until the horse hardens off and is able to use itself as it should. Then many physical and behavioural problems simply disappear.

[ruthp]

Hi Seble,

My horse made a dramatic improvement after a few months on Forage Plus, and my farrier, who's a barefoot specialist, was intrigued as she was the first horse he'd seen make such a change on it. So we looked at what else she was fed - and the only difference we could come up with is that she's also on UlserGuard, as she's had ulcers in the past. So, our conclusion was that in order for Forage Plus to work really well, your horse's gut needs to be in tip top condition too. I notice that you're already feeding yea sac etc. so maybe you're already onto it.

With this in mind I also added Dengie's new Healthy Tummy in, and have notice another step change improvement. So now I'm feeding just a cup of Fast Fibre, to mix the Forage Plus in, a scoop of Healthy Tummy and the UlserGuard - and for the first time ever I'm riding Bali without boots in all conditions.

As others have said, you do need to give these things time - it will take months to improve the feet - but if you've got any doubts about her digestive system then adding in an appropriate supplement or feed might just help her absorb the nutrition from Forage Plus.

[donnalex]

It sounds like there could be more than one problem going on. Maybe her having tender feet due to the mud and abrasive grit has made her move in a tense way and has in turn made her sore in her muscles?
If at all possible I would get her seen by a good physiotherapist who will be able to feel any soreness in her muscles even if you are unable to trot her up. If you stood her on good rubber mats for the treatment she should be comfortable enough for any sore muscles to be treated.
My pony had really bad white line disease at two years old, had her feet dremelled away and glue on shoes fitted. When I backed her and rode her away she had really sore ham strings and tail that the physiotherapist had only ever found in ponies that had had bad laminitis. Basically she had taken the weight off her fronts when they were sore at two and used her back end in a way that it is not designed for and made her ham strings sore in the process. All that before she was ever worked

[rifruffian]

The info from the OP indicates to me the soles are probably thin and there could be injury/stiffness higher up the body as the result of the kicking match.
My own idea would be to let the kicking injury heal naturally over whatever period of time it takes and meantime exercise the horse in hand frequently over a smooth (tarmacadam) surface; plus whatever diet supplement you see fit.

[seble]

Wow - thanks for all the great comments. All very thought provoking and helpful. I'll try to be brief as I can waffle!

Extra dose mag/zinc/copper - very interesting, they are all the ingredients in FP balancer so I will speak to Sarah about whether I should up the dose.

Work - agree with your comments about work whole heartedly and that is why i made the comment about shoeing although with our lane being so rocky I'm not even sure she will be comfortable in shoes, at least the boots/pads give some protection. She was in work until the kicking match, admittedly not every day but every other day. The problem I have in the winter is working full time, no school and dark evenings. I will have a think about whether I could start work later in the morning and try to get her out, even just in hand, in the mornings while there is still a bit of light. I have been bringing her in at night for the last 2 weeks and will continue to do so but interestingly she is very stiff in the mornings. Vet did suggest using builders lime in a sock to dust her feet at night after I've picked them out to dry them out ....mmmm not heard that one before And may discuss with trimmer before trying.

Tummy - have been suspicious about her tummy as always been very reactive to touch, I did try her on gastricx supplement earlier this year but saw little improvement in those reactions but encouraged by your success with FP balancer.

Physio - exactly my thoughts about saw muscles and hamstring pain which was why I had the bowen therapist out. She did find tight hamstrings and worked on those, but will look into finding a physio in the area (anyone know of anyone around Sheffield?)

Injury - yep I was concerned that kicking match has altered her way on moving and putting more strain on front end and so putting more pressure on sensitive thin soles on front. Vet didn't feel any major injury ongoing but the body does take time to heal from such an insult so physio may assist.

Lots of food for thought and really helping me so thanks again.

[bertie666]

The not being able to step under herself is not a foot issue - its something higher up, most likely pelvis or back.

Id want a qualified equine physio to look at this rather than a 'therapist' such as bowen et al.

[clipclop]

Ditto Bertie - being stiff after standing in does suggest something other than feet is going on.

Sent from my ST18i using proboards

[seble]

Quick (!) update.
Took her for a walk in hand this morning, only 20 mins but its a start, started to track up as we were out but still seems very stiff in hocks.

Out of interest, would a physio be preferable to an osteo? Been given the name of a fully qual human/equine osteo although not sure yet if he will travel to Sheffield but he's only in Derbyshire.