|
Post by seble on Nov 16, 2012 10:03:13 GMT 1
Well got the results this morning.
Her front soles are thin, but her back soles are almost non existent, definitely will be the cause of much discomfort. Pedal bones all good connection, no rotation or fractures. No splint bone fractures, there are some "fragments" in her hocks, mainly off hind, he says he thinks these are lifelong and they are something some horses have? He said the word fragments sounds more significant than it is and he doesn't believe they are connected to her current problems. So he says to keep doing what I'm doing re bringing her in at night, keep feet as dry as possible and gentle exercise in boots. but I will give Sarah a ring at forage plus and see if she would suggest some additions to the winter balancer or switch to the performance one as mandal suggested. I still think I will get some physio as well as her pain will be affecting her gait and will be putting pressure on her joints and muscles so anything that may make her feel a bit more comfortable is worth it.
Time is going to be the healer as well but will keep you posted with her progress.
|
|
|
Post by mandal on Nov 16, 2012 11:09:28 GMT 1
It's good news you have an answer to at least part of her problems. Time is going to be the healer as well but will keep you posted with her progress. You are right, time is going to be a big factor and having a chat with Sarah will help with which way to go with supplementation to enable her to grow thicker soles. Good luck. x
|
|
|
Post by donnalex on Nov 17, 2012 11:13:14 GMT 1
So is the thinking that the fence walking in mud and spinning on her back end to turn and march the fence again has worn away her soles? Or has she simply got thin soles naturally?
|
|
|
Post by mandal on Nov 17, 2012 11:30:20 GMT 1
So is the thinking that the fence walking in mud and spinning on her back end to turn and march the fence again has worn away her soles? Or has she simply got thin soles naturally? Neither were in my thinking. ;D Soles shouldn't wear away especially with a regular activity they are used to and I personally don't believe thin soles are only/all genetic. Thin soles are a problem for horses as they are at risk of bruising, puncture etc. so having them is of no advantage. Here's Pete Ramey's take on soles in general. www.hoofrehab.com/horses_sole.htm
|
|
|
Post by seble on Nov 17, 2012 16:38:10 GMT 1
I think the vet believes it is some of each.
The trimmer has always felt that she has had thin soles, he also says he is developing a theory on thin soled horses that he says he has no proof for but he feels it is a type of laminitis where the laminae become elastic and stretch but it ends up with the pedal bone sitting lower in the hoof capsule rather than rotating and that the additional compression on the corium leads to a restricted sole growth. Like he said it is something he has been developing his thoughts on over the years and that a vet would probably think he was barmy but its something to think about.
Anyhow the vets feeling is that just like our finger nails become soft in the bath (and I know nails and hooves are made of different things) the same thing happens to permanently wet hooves and soles. Then the mechanical action of liquid mud full of small stones and grit, have exacerbated things by acting like a constant facial scrub. In my mind I can see how the hind feet would become thinner than the fronts due to the natural hind end action. He said he has never seen so many horses with paper thin soles than he has this year and unfortunately the land Celyn is on, as he said himself, oozes water even in summer (we have tons of underground springs) and this summer has been ridiculous.
Trimmer feels that getting the minerals right will go a long way to help, as will walking her out in boots and pads to stimulate growth. And vet also believes that coming in at night and allowing her feet a good period of time to dry out will help. Have called Sarah at FP and left her a msg so waiting to hear from her. I have seen that she is now doing a hoof specific balancer with added biotin, methionine, folic acid and something else, I would need to add the vit e but that sounds like a good alternative to the winter one.
|
|
|
Post by mandal on Nov 17, 2012 18:00:58 GMT 1
I think your trimmer is right especially re thin soles being linked to lamina inflammation. All the hoof coria are inflamed including the sole corium.
I ummed and ahhed about the hoof one but I wanted the extra phosphorous and vitamin C. I'll be interested what Sarah says. I have seen a big difference in my laminitic pony since I switched her from the winter balancer to the performance with added vitamin E. She is storming about all the time now. I haven't seen her footy for ages. She is on a nil grass diet.
|
|
|
Post by specialized on Nov 17, 2012 18:57:33 GMT 1
So is the thinking that the fence walking in mud and spinning on her back end to turn and march the fence again has worn away her soles? Or has she simply got thin soles naturally? I honestly doubt that the fence walking would be wearing away the soles as the general adage in barefoot is that work will stimulate the sole to thicken - as long as the trim and diet are correct. Similarly 'naturally thin soles' should only benefit from movement if the surrounding structure is healthy and correct.
|
|
|
Post by seble on Nov 17, 2012 19:23:29 GMT 1
It may be that her diet hasn't been correct, until 3 weeks ago she was on formula 4 feet which shes been on for about 2 years, but I swapped because I wasn't happy about levels of iron and whether that was blocking the absorbtion of copper and zinc and as such not giving her the best chance to grow thick soles (always been ouchy on gravel and trimmer felt soles were thin even at her best) 3 weeks obviously won't have been long enough on FP winter balancer to have improved this.
Mandal, interesting about the phosphorus and vit c, I'm afraid I don't know enough to understand why they would impact, could you enlighten me. I thought about the hoof one because of the biotin etc etc. will certainly let you know what Sarah says.
|
|
|
Post by mandal on Nov 17, 2012 19:37:35 GMT 1
Phosphorous is low in all the hay I know that has been sampled here and vitamin C as she doesn't get grass. It's the whole package really that I think is important for my lot but it is a guesstimate as I don't get my various hay tested. I'm no diet expert either. ;D
|
|
|
Post by specialized on Nov 17, 2012 21:27:22 GMT 1
I would have thought that most commercial hay would have elevated levels of phosphorous as it is one of the 3 constituents of most commercial fertilisers.
|
|
|
Post by seble on Nov 17, 2012 23:00:45 GMT 1
Well she is fed 50% silvermoor lite haylage (so a commercial crop) and 50% late cut meadow hay from the fields around the yard which have never been fertilised with anything. So in theory, that should balance itself out?
|
|
|
Post by steviecops on Nov 17, 2012 23:33:54 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by mandal on Nov 18, 2012 10:23:25 GMT 1
I would have thought that most commercial hay would have elevated levels of phosphorous as it is one of the 3 constituents of most commercial fertilisers. Is it really that simple? Chucking NPK on year after year may well not produce 'balanced' hay there are so many other factors involved. It seems a bit like knowing the sugar/starch content of hay... the only way to know for sure is to test it. ps... and then you have to get the results analysed for conversion to a diet plan. ;D Seble, I just looked at the Silvermoor site. They don't give the sugar levels in % but mgs per Kg and that is 25. Does that mean 25%? Perhaps they would give you a nutritional breakdown and I would clarify the sugar starch levels with them. One of the Marksway ones might be more suitable. www.horsehage.co.uk/analysis.html
|
|
|
Post by seble on Nov 21, 2012 20:44:24 GMT 1
Had a really interesting chat with Sarah at forage plus today. She has recommended switching to the FP hoof balancer next time but in the meantime continue with the winter balancer and the extra biotin I got. Stop press....there will be a winter version of the hoof balancer (which includes vitamin E) coming out in 2 weeks or so which will tie in with when I run out of the winter balancer. She talked to me about how natural spring water (which is all we have) is not always best as it can fluctuate so much especially when there is heavy rain and can be be polluted by road run off etc. Also how horses on very dirty short grazing (like celyn has)can pick up a lot of soil whilst foraging, which can also include a lot of iron and therefore block the iron and zinc absorbtion. So I'm probably try and set up a water but to collect rain water for hay soaking and bring water from home for drinking and considering whether to move her onto a field with better grazing and muzzle her whilst she's out. She also talked about having her tested or cushings even though she has no other signs, after Sarah heard about one of her clients horses of a similar age who had no signs but was very lethargic (again like Celyn) and came back mildly positive. Since being on low dose pergolide has never looked back. Will definitely call the vet tomorrow as the test is only EE until the end of the month. A for Celyn, she's still much the same but that was only to be expected. Thanks again to all of you who have given of your knowledge and experiences. Ps mandal - I think the silvermoor lite haylage only has 6.8% sugar, the 25% sugar mj/kg is on the recreation and active pages but I've no idea what that means However been having some quality issues (probably cause by the wet weather this year) so I may switch to horsehage anyway. Thanks
|
|
|
Post by taklishim on Nov 21, 2012 22:06:31 GMT 1
To answer a couple of things, she is ok but not great on the smooth concrete in our American barn but only on a straight line. When you turn her, her back feet "get stuck" and she doesn't want to step under herself. She also talked about having her tested or cushings even though she has no other signs, after Sarah heard about one of her clients horses of a similar age who had no signs but was very lethargic (again like Celyn) and came back mildly positive. Since being on low dose pergolide has never looked back. Will definitely call the vet tomorrow as the test is only EE until the end of the month. my horse 14 may have been similar. I don't really buy the wet weather arguement and soft feet etc. He only grew feet and sole when I started on equimins meta balance. This made a real difference. (also on calmag, salt, yeasac and linseed) (that is the equivalent of your FP supplement) I think it took around 6 wks to start to get growth. The back thing sounds familiar. Mine got really odd this year. His hind quarters got weak, he lost muscle, any adjustments the chiropractor made were pointless and one stage his back feet got toally stuck and I couldn't even pick them up. I tested him for cushings twice in the spring and he was negative both times. I didn't believe the test results and decided to go with the physical symptoms which were the muscle wasting, hind quarters problems and lethargy. I could have picked him up and carried him faster than he was carrying me. I put him on a prascend (pergolide) trial. He has been on that since the beg of Oct working up to 1 per day and he has now been on 1 a day for 5 weeks. There has been a considerable improvement. The muscle is coming back, hind end problems just about gone. He is a million times happier and he has become a little monster as he has regained his mojo. ;D ;D He is far stronger riding, he hasn't moved so well for a long time. So despite 2 negative results it seems pretty likely that at 14 he has cushings. I am afraid I don't have that much confidence in the ACTH test. If it tests positive for you then great but if not then it may be worth asking your vet for a trial of prascend. If you want some more info on cushings go onto the PPID/EMS section of the Phoenix group. You will find other borderline or negative test cases who have shown results from a prascend trial.
|
|