indigo
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Post by indigo on Aug 16, 2011 13:47:37 GMT 1
WOW what a fascinating debate, great to hear the oppinion of such talented horse people coming from different directions. I'm not even going to try and pretend I understand half of the historical stuff.
I just wanted to say that I was really intersted to see the old illustrations, I would love to know the dates of the people you have been discussing, like Baucher? It was of course not until 1877 that Muybridge took sequential images of horse movement and provided stop action proof of the exact foot falls and so on. With the very early (17th century??) wood cuts obviously we would have to take into account the artistic as well as the equestrian style involved and how their scientific misconceptions and aesthetic fashions would shape the way they influence they way that horse physique and movement would be portrayed?
And Rik, yes the on-going debate about the seperation of art and reality in general could be without end lol. I think the most important part of interpreting any historical text is self awareness. We cannot leave our own oppinions and emotions out and taking a holistic view of it is our best chance at learning the most that we can. We look at what every body else has said/written in response to a text, and we read and evaluate whilst fully aware that they were just as affected by their own baggage as we are by ours ha ha!
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Post by heather on Aug 16, 2011 21:29:10 GMT 1
I'm just doing a ten day teacher training intensive, Indigo, and we were discussing Muybridge earlier today, then I pop in here, and up he pops again!! ;D
Heather
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Rik
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Post by Rik on Aug 16, 2011 21:49:36 GMT 1
Are you saying that a seat only comprises of ear/shoulder/hip/heel alignment?
You can see that you are using muscles to maintain that position and that involves tension, that’s not to say you are tense/restrictive or that you can’t have tension in parts of your body and not others, as you are demonstrating, It would be interesting to see some canter to see if there is any variation in the different gait. Personally if I ride with my legs as you do I can feel the tension in the muscles that are being used to maintain that position and my goal is to have as little tension as possible below my seat unless I am using a leg aid which leaves me with no option but to leave them in their neutral position which is turned out slightly, as I am not following a specific system or anyone’s interpretation it doesn’t matter. I’ve only ridden a couple of PRE Stallion’s myself but I found them very accepting of the leg no matter how badly I applied it, I can only assume they were school masters of the highest quality or of a very forgiving nature. Just going back to what the great man said, you are carrying your legs differently to him and I don’t think you can accomplish what he did that way, I might add I prefer they way you carry your legs to the way he does but then I could never do half what he did in a million years and am not trying anyway, I’m trying for something else.
Indigo, the main protagonists that have been discussed.
Antoine de Pluvinel is 1552-1620 First of the French Riding Masters bringing Classical Horsemanship from the Renaissance movement in Italy.
Fracious Baucher is 1796-1873 Pivotal and possibly the most important horseman.
Louis Edward Nolan is 1818-1854 considered the greatest horseman in England at the time of his death.
James Fillis is 1834-1913 The greatest High School Rider to have graced the earth.
I am not sure you can ride this precisely and not be fully aware of foot falls.
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indigo
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Post by indigo on Aug 17, 2011 15:59:11 GMT 1
Ha that is weird isn't it Heather, I dug out my Muybridge book to look for dates, I love the images themselves.
Thank you so much Rik, wow some VERY early references. I wonder if the great equestrian masters would have made far better guesses as to the movement of horses than contemporary artists did. Not only were they un-aware of the moment of suspension in trot but they also did those wonderful images of horses galloping in bounding two legged strides. I wonder if there were any equestrian artists were also horsemen? Even good old Stubbs preffered them dead lol!
Reading that quote (and you'll have to forgive my ignorance if this is a daft question) but with that second by second obsessive control and balance of speed and power, where is the room for self carriage from the horse? Also is it inferred as obvious in this description that anyone capable of this level of control will be doing it with out thinking in a state of unconcious excellence? Surely to react stride by stride there would be no time for concious thought? I wonder what you classical people make of Western lol? I'm no expert there either but it is how I TRY to ride and as far as I understand it we lift and ask for the self carriage and then release and the horse is expected to stay there and the contact is ideally no more than the weight of the reins themselves while he maintains that, it sounds as though your leg aid may be along those lines Rik if you have them completely off except when you apply an aid? Which I for one am very glad about as I think I can do less damage that way as learn lol!!
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Post by heather on Aug 17, 2011 22:58:53 GMT 1
Yes, I am saying that the basic premise of the position of balance, is purely ear/shoulder/hip and heel, Rik. I have long also taught in considerable depth, the precise movements of the lower back and pelvis, that enable adhesion to the horse's movement, with as little disturbance to his balance as possible. My teaching of this has been sufficiently successful for me to have been invited to teach the Classical Seat all over the world. Perhaps you do not agree with me, ( btw, my leg is exactly the same in canter and in all movements) we are all entitled to our own opinions, it is clear that you are very well read , and are able to quote lengthy passages by various Old Masters, but I am also curious to know of your own experience as a teacher and trainer. Sorry to ask again, if you have already introduced yourself in previous threads.
Heather
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Post by lisap on Aug 19, 2011 9:53:48 GMT 1
After the GB success in the European Dressage Championships it was good to hear Richard Davison acknowledging that many Germans and other Europeans felt that GB was leading the way in producing dressage horses without 'controversiality' in either training or movement.
Charlotte Dujardin's horse Valero is, in my eyes a great example of this - he looks like he could be ridden in a headcollar and produce great work - his piaffes are correct, and although his paces are extravagent and flamboyant, they are not forced or exaggerated. And he performs with a soft tail - no mad swishing!
Is this, perhaps where competitive and classical are beginning to come together again?
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indigo
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Post by indigo on Aug 19, 2011 16:45:57 GMT 1
Ok, so at the risk of making some totally stupid comments because I really know so little about dressage lol? (I would love to be able to sit next to Derek or Heather or Lisa etc and be able to ask them a running commentary of daft questions ha ha). When I watch that this is what I see, I quite like his walk. The trot work looks weird to me, I don't understand all the front leg flash when the movement at the back doesn't match it, and he appears to be putting more effort lifting his hind legs than stepping under with them? Is that way of moving "correct" or "balanced" or is the way that horses move in top level competition very much based on current fashion? I quite like his head carraige though it looks to me like he does sometimes over bend, he looks very very wobbly and not terribly accurate in some manouvres, even his first halt to trot wobbles doesn't it? Is this over looked because of the flash and the collection and his extravagent movement? Is the constant nag nag nag leg necessary to get this performance? That's not sarcasm, it's a serious question, I have no idea about the aids for passage lol and so on, but she is barely ever still, is this how it should look? Also all the canter work to me it looks as though she is driving with her seat A LOT, is that really what I'm seeing, she doesn't look still or light to me, or is that my untrained eye misinterpreting what I'm looking at? All in all I suppose this is just not my bag ha ha, I would not want to ride or sit on a horse performing like this, it makes no sense to me, like climbing everest but that is just my personal choice if you know what I mean. I am not saying that I could do this, or that she is doing a bad job, and I'm aware that he may be a very difficult horse to ride and that a tremendous amount of work went into getting him to that point. I'm just interested to understand what I'm seeing. Look forward to hearing what the EXPERTS think
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Aug 19, 2011 17:52:51 GMT 1
Hi indigo, you're certainly welcome to pop in and ask daft questions if you're ever in our area, but in the meantime... Well, I'd pretty much agree with what you said here. The thing is, I don't want to sit here and criticise others, but since this is not open to the general public and you have asked some direct questions I will make some observations. I'm actually inclined to agree with Lisa's comment that based on this video, one could say that it appears that competition is moving back TOWARDS classical. On the other hand, based on this video being of a medal winning combination at the Europeans (and I know it's not the same event), there's still a bit of a way to go. A performance that gets a top mark (maybe even a 10) almost inevitably becomes regarded as 'the ideal' by people watching and that's where the danger lies. It may only have been the best of the bunch who turned up for the competition... From my perspective: the walk is quite good, 4-beats and with an extended neck (thought I can't see well enough from this angle to be sure). The trot is very close to passage, which is very popular in competition nowadays but fundamentally incorrect. In this respect, the judges are not following their own rules. The reason it is incorrect is because it indicates tension in the top line, which is partly what causes the foreleg-throwing trot extensions. The other cause is that the rider is attempting (and failing!) to 'collect' the horse by compression between driving aids (legs) and restraining aids (the reins). Again, though, that type of movement has become the norm and any horse not doing it is more or less assured not to get the best marks. The 'lifting rather than engaging' of the hind legs is again a function of the tension in the top line limiting the amount by which the hind legs can reach forward. Agree again. The horse is overflexed almost the entire time. It would appear so... Absolutely, if the horse is being restrained in front at the same time as being asked to go. It's like driving with the handbrake on. The alternative is for the rider to learn how to regulate the speed and elevation of the gaits by elevation of the poll rather than constriction, but that would mean a whole set of wide-ranging changes in the riding that would make the horse look so different it would be regarded as 'weird' nowadays... It's not the only way to do it... I wouldn't say that she is actively driving with the seat but I do think she shows a lot of tension and the balance is not quite right. As a result, her upper body is swinging back and forth a bit. Me neither, lol! I have to sit on a few dressage horses who come to us for help. I sat on one the other day who has been winning at medium level and she felt absolutely awful to ride. Stiff as a plank and convinced that the bit was something to fight with or lean on. Same here. I know for a fact that I couldn't go out and do that test tomorrow on that horse. But, that's not the point, is it? When I was a rowing coach I coached plenty of people to win world championships and all sorts of other events, but I know I can't row that well myself... And, as I heard someone say the other day, "you don't have to be a shepherd to know what not to put in a sheep" Speaking personally, I wouldn't want to ride a horse quite in that way and I'm in the middle process of training my own with Philippe Karl to be able to do a similar sort of performance quite differently. In terms of understanding what you are seeing, I'd describe this as a RELATIVELY horse-friendly reprise within the constraints of what currently gets the marks in competition. If it were my horse, I'd prefer to see the neck longer, the poll more open and higher which would allow the horse to come up off his forehand and perform much better piaffe and pirouettes, plus I'd also like to see the top line much more relaxed and the hind quarters properly engaged. The trouble is I'm not at all convinced that it would earn higher marks if she did that and that's probably the main reason why she's not doing those things - even though she and/or her coaches might even agree with me technically or philosophically. I am convinced that my horses would be happier about being ridden if I did those things, though, and that's what matters most to me.
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indigo
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Post by indigo on Aug 19, 2011 19:08:19 GMT 1
Thank you so much Derek, highly informative as always. I guess what it shows is that for people like us who are appreciating the quality of life of the horses above most else, the compromises in getting to the top are just not worth the sacrifices. And i'm glad I wasn't totally off in my assesment lol. I would hate to be a judge for this sort of thing, I can't stand stress and politics so I suspect dressage is not my calling ha ha! I guess unless the systen changed so that riders were rewarded for the different ways of doing things then the people who prize results above all else will not bother to make a change....sigh. I am quite glad that my competitive gene appears to have been removed at birth, it must be an awfull burden Not that i'm immune to criticism mind you, so I may avoid posting video of me shambling across the moor on my 13hh Darty and asking for feedback rofl!!!
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Post by Zuzan on Aug 19, 2011 23:18:49 GMT 1
Interesting comparing the above vid with Reiner Klimke at the Olympics in 84..
extended trot looks far more "natural" than the modern wierd version.. and Ahlerich displays a higher and slightly more open poll as Derek describes .. allthough he verges on the BTV in places.. Klimke looks like he sits more in balance and is less thrown about than todays riders.. possibly because Ahlerich's paces I think are more natural and look to my eye more fluid..
imho Klimke is probably the last competition rider who made it look artistic.
Interstingly with all this talk of different schools Klimke was of course German.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Aug 20, 2011 0:04:09 GMT 1
Here's an example I like that I've posted before: It looks superficially quite similar to the first video except longer neck, higher poll, relaxed topline and more engagement of the quarters. The poll is also allowed to open when the horse needs to elevate for pirouettes (except the one where he doesn't allow it to open and so the horse falls out of the gait). www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bi6VwaUlrsand another, much older example: (bit of a swishy tail though!) www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-FJRyei400If someone turned up at a competition riding like this today it would be technically very correct according to the rules yet it would look so 'weird' that I bet it wouldn't win. You can read some of the comments below it about being hollow (it isn't!). [mta: I like Klimke's ride too! ;D , though to be fair the piaffe in the early stages is over flexed and therefore on the forehand and the walk looks a bit lateralised at times]
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Post by lisap on Aug 20, 2011 9:48:46 GMT 1
What I will remind people of is that the breeding programme in Europe in the last 30 years has produced horses with this movement straight from the womb. I know that if you saw Valero working free, he would show you almost the exact same movement. Now, whether we like this movement or not is quite a different subject. Being an old fashioned working hunter competitor I like straight, economical movement without too much flash or 'bounce', but.... That is my personal preference. Equally, I am left completely cold by the natural movement of most Iberian horses/hackney types with lots of shoulder extension etc. I don't like spanish walk for the same reason, it looks ungainly and awkward to me. BUT, that is personal preference! The nag, nag that you are seeing with Charlotte is the fact that Valero's movement is so exaggerated that it is next to impossible to sit entirely still on a horse like that. If you had put M Klimpke on Valero his lower leg would probably move a bit too!! There is a whole other discussion as to whether competitive dressage has become all about the gait of the horse rather than the training - but that is not what we have been discussing so far. As far as Charlotte's riding is concerned, she is a lovely, lovely rider and I would cheerfully KILL to be able to ride even a 100th as well as she can ;D.
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Post by wabuska on Aug 20, 2011 10:04:17 GMT 1
I know to some degree we can de-construct beautiful balanced riding, but not completely.
I have watched videos of classical riders shot through with tension, and cowboys who just take your breath away. IMO, it's from within, and not something that can be trained or schooled in to just anyone. There's something almost metaphysical and I feel it does reflect the inner spirit of the person riding. Uptight, un-centred people on horses look like uptight, un-centred people on horses to me anyway.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Aug 20, 2011 10:11:21 GMT 1
Lisa said: In terms of how he uses his back and therefore how his legs move I agree up to a point but I bet (based on my own experiences) that if he were trained differently it would be much less exaggerated and he'd be more relaxed as a result. In terms of the over flexion, though, I've never seen a horse that over flexes out of choice and puts himself on the forehand when trying to piaffe or pirouette at liberty...
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annie
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Post by annie on Aug 20, 2011 11:43:12 GMT 1
Interesting comparing the above vid with Reiner Klimke at the Olympics in 84.. extended trot looks far more "natural" than the modern wierd version.. and Ahlerich displays a higher and slightly more open poll as Derek describes .. allthough he verges on the BTV in places.. Klimke looks like he sits more in balance and is less thrown about than todays riders.. possibly because Ahlerich's paces I think are more natural and look to my eye more fluid.. imho Klimke is probably the last competition rider who made it look artistic. Interstingly with all this talk of different schools Klimke was of course German. Ah now Zuzan, to my very untrained eye this is much more pleasing to watch than either Charlotte's or Carl's performance. I don't know much about dressage and am not at all interested in competitive dressage. I think to me it is not so much the rider but the awful way in which these modern warmbloods move. I just don't like their flashy movement - to me it looks like a circus act.
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