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Post by heather on Aug 10, 2011 21:07:36 GMT 1
Isnt that all the more reason to try to get art back into competition Rik? For instance, figure skating or ice dance still have technical and artistic marks- I have long said that dressage should have the same, and also a far greater percentage of marks for the rider.
Whilst mere lip service is paid to the correctness of the rider's seat and refinement of the aids, competition dressage will never be art.
Heather
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Aug 11, 2011 18:09:18 GMT 1
This is my fifth attempt at posting, the question covers so much ground it’s impossible to cover everything, all five post were long and still didn’t cover half the subjects this sort of question throws up so the short answer for me is….
What’s Art? Who’s version of Art is correct? Does Art have a place in sport at all?
Different people will have different opinions.
You say “correctness of the rider's seat” but does that matter, is Riding not all about the movement, does it matter if the riders seat is not perfect if they do not impede the movement of the horse and move with it as one? Some people look motionless on a horse but the horse moves underneath them in spite of the rider not because of them others move around a lot but underneath them the horse is not impeded because of the riders movement and move sublimely.
Derek said to him horsemanship is about a journey, to me it starts with the horses movement and ends with the horses movement and in the middle it’s all about the movement, others will have different opinions again I’m sure.
Can we even agree on what Classical is? Is it about any school/style or a general philosophy of horsemanship?
Are the methods irrelevant and it’s the people that are important, can a bad horseman ruin a horse with a good system/school of horsemanship? Can good horseman produce a good horse with a bad system?
I think it’s about people and not systems or schools, I think you can learn a lot about a person by watching them ride rather than talk.
Personally I don’t think you can have Art in a Sport, Art speaks to you on a personal level, it means different things to different people, in a sport you are told what is good and what is not by the scores.
Then we get to Competitive Dressage, the only way it will change is if there is a big shake up which I don’t think will happen, Since the end of the Second World War the Germans have effectively run international Dressage which is why it reflects the Germanic Classical Schools not the French, it would take a fundamental change in direction from the FEI for the things people find disagreeable in the sport today to disappear, but I have to say there is still some good in the sport, it’s not all bad.
But it all comes down to personal opinion again, so much is subjective, in the end it come back to what is important to you, Money? Winning? The Horse? The Riding? Your School of horsemanship? Your instructor? etc it’s a cross section of society just like anything else.
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Post by heather on Aug 11, 2011 20:57:26 GMT 1
I am just running a two week teacher trainng intensive, Rik, and we have had a number of guinea pig horse and rider combinations to assess and work on. I have not once worked on the horse this week, solely on the rider, but the transformation in the horse, once the rider is synchronising their movements with the horse, and applying refined aids, has been absolute. I have seen this, time and again, over 40 years of teaching. Sometimes the adjustment is minute, but it has a huge effect.
Heather
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Aug 11, 2011 23:13:33 GMT 1
That’s because as soon as you get on a horses back you impede it’s movement, synchronising with the movement or ideally being part of the movement will impede it less but it’s not the only way to reduce how much you impede the horses movement.
If the goal is impede the horse less so it can move then what you do to accomplish this is not important only the resultant effect on the horse.
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Post by heather on Aug 12, 2011 8:51:30 GMT 1
In that case, I have wasted my entire life, career, and 40 years teaching thousands of riders to ride with greater empathy, for the sake of the horse. You are really saying that how you interact with the horse doesnt matter. I beg to differ.
Heather
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Aug 12, 2011 10:56:41 GMT 1
Of course it does both on a physical and emotional level but correct French seat, synchronising with the horse and refined French aids are not the goal imo.
It is a way of getting to the goal of not impeding the horse as much as you can so the horse can move, imo movement of the horse is the goal how a rider gets that is generally irrelevant to me.
Didn’t Nuno say…
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Post by heather on Aug 12, 2011 18:16:12 GMT 1
What is a 'French seat' Rik?
Heather
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Post by jennyb on Aug 12, 2011 19:46:53 GMT 1
Une Berm... ;D
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Aug 12, 2011 20:50:24 GMT 1
Arguably as good a description as any other.
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kathyt
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 215
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Post by kathyt on Aug 12, 2011 21:08:19 GMT 1
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Post by heather on Aug 12, 2011 21:08:27 GMT 1
Yes an excellent description of the correct seat, but not exclusively French, Rik! Some of the best seats in the world, belong to German riders!
Heather
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Post by heather on Aug 12, 2011 21:09:12 GMT 1
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Post by heather on Aug 13, 2011 9:10:09 GMT 1
PS. I disagree with the toes being turned slightly outwards, unless the rider has tight ankles and walks with the feet at 10 to 2- although even then, it is often possible to supple the ankles with exercises to improve this. Turning the toes out, is the prime cause of the backwards use of the leg and gripping up, that is to be seen in 90% of riders. This fault, together with seatbones used together rather than unilaterally, is the biggest cause of blocking the horse, that I have found in my teaching of riding.
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Aug 14, 2011 9:48:13 GMT 1
When that text was written no one would think it was anything other than French, Not sure what the nationality of the individuals who practice a given seat in our globalised society today has got to do with historical riding styles that fall under todays Classical grouping.
No one says they ride with French stirrups but the type most people use were created by the English born Frenchman who wrote the text and came out of France, the same goes for the hold most people use with a double bridle.
Seems to me it all goes with the notion schools of horsemanship are not important it's about individuals.
As for toes out, I think the great man has it spot on for that style, I’ve never sat on a horse with my legs just loose and my feet not pointed out slightly, if I had to turn my feet from their natural position I would have to engage muscles which would introduce tension as that’s how muscles work.(I might add my feet don’t point out at 10 to 2)
But it’s not the way I aspire to ride.
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Post by heather on Aug 15, 2011 19:13:46 GMT 1
I thought that the ear/shoulder/hip/heel line of balance was pretty well universally recognised as the only balanced seat, not exclusive to any one nation, Rik. The legs can be 'decontracted', as Nuno used to term it, with the toes pointing forwards, Rik. Here is a video clip of me riding a friends, horse ( I had only sat on the mare once before, several years prior to this) - with my little toes slightly lowered and toes pointing forwards. Would you say that my legs are tense and restrictive? www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYtRhJP8VPU. Bearing in mind that I mostly ride hot Iberians, who would be the other side of Dartmoor in a flash, if I were to be using strong leg aids. :-) Heather
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