no turn out nov until may!!! is this normal

[Hannah]

Dec 14, 2010 13:29:29 GMT 1 mandal said:

Perhaps we need to stop 'putting up' with stuff so much?

Absolutley mandal. If no-one moved their horse to a yard where there was no winter turnout, the yards would soon have to do something about it. Whether that is keep fewer horses so the land could be used all year round, or whatever. I am sure that some would have to close as land isn't exactly freely available.

Unfortunately sometimes when you look round a yard, you won't get told the "whole" truth, even if you ask the specific questions

[janej55uk]

We don't turn out our horses in the fields during the winter, our climate and WAG wouldn't allow it due to restrictions on bare ground and muddy fields! Our farm buildings are however on old flattened slate tips meaning we have well drained yards, so 2 of of my boys have a barn and yard with free access to both at all times, my partners mare and daughter pony have barn and yard or overnight stabling when its the TB demands and shes not shy with her opinions, she wanted in in the snow and although she has 24 hour access to her stable she won't stand in it without the pony in the next one.
the shetland and his daughter a welsh x are both out in the main but stand by their gate campaigning to be in for most of the time.
Standing in isn't ideal but pulling tendons in knee deep clay fields isn't good either.

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2010 16:36:28 GMT 1 Hannah said:

Absolutley mandal. If no-one moved their horse to a yard where there was no winter turnout, the yards would soon have to do something about it.

Yes, many of them would close because land prices wouldn't allow them to continue. And either DIY livery would either die out or prices would rocket because current livery rates wouldn't be viable as a business.

Hands up who would like to see England turn into somewhere where livery is £500 a month for DIY? Because that's *exactly* what would happen here in the South East.

I say live and let live. I think it is every horse owners decision as to how they keep thier horse. I used to work in a yard with very limited winter turnout and although it's not ideal, those horses are a lot better looked after and happier than many horses who are turned out but then neglected or abused by bad trainers.

[mmel001]

Apparently my yard up until a couple of years ago used to insist that the horses remained in if there were prolonged periods of rain. I can't imagine how the horses would cope. My horse goes nuts if he's left in an hour or two longer than he would be during the week and turns into an energy ball hell bent on getting to his field as fast as possible.

[mandal]

I'm not sure what you mean by DIY livery would disappear Michellep? It would just evolve into DIY livery with turnout or tracks or yards in winter. Not all turn out requires acres and acres of land.
I know it's a difficult one when there are lots of different owners and horses and often the population isn't stable with horses coming and going but I don't see why using stabling less means the end of DIY?
Less mucking out is a huge benefit for humans. lol The benefits for horses getting more movement and social time etc. are imo huge though and something I consider most important for horses health and wellbeing. Some don't agree I know.

[donnalex]

Part of the problem is the owners of the horses.
Any yard owner who tried to do their best for the liveries often ends up changing their mind pretty swiftly.
A few years ago I had two people on with their ponies (one each) I told them that they could go out on the good field until the weather got bad (it was end of November) and the field started to suffer, then they would have to go up on the hill field.
Every day they turned up before taking their kids to shcool (8.30am) and dumped the ponies out and they came up after their tea (7.30 onwards) to bring them in. This included a week of monsoon weather where half the road was washed away and there was a river running down past the house. Then they washed them off wetting the whole place in the process and put their extremely hairy wet through to the skin and shivering ponies in for the night only to do the same thing the next day. Even when they were reminded about looking after the field they were back out again first thing the day after.
When they were then told the summer field is now shut they were very put out that they had to walk two minutes up hill and worst of all their ponies were not waiting at the gate so they had to look for them, this took twenty minutes you know! Came out next day and they were in my small pens churning it up without permission. I truly believe they would not have been happy until every patch of land we had was as black as the night sky. Basically they did not want their ponies shitting in their stables or to buy any more bedding than the bare minimum. After a few of these types most yard owners would throw their hands in the air, give up and allow them a slutch patch to do with what they like or have a total no turn out policy.

[mags]

I agree, there is so much that could be done in terms of creating non-pasture, all weather turnout areas. This is so common in other countries, I'm having a really hard time understanding why it is so uncommon in the UK. I lived in Germany for a long time. Our horses lived in groups in dirt paddocks all winter, and in a dirt paddock with regulated access to pasture in summer. Population pressure surely is comparable on the continent. It would require initial investment to create those turnout areas (whether paddocks or tracks), but you'd be able to use the area much more intensively (all year, more horses than on grass) once it is set up, and maintenance is same, if not easier than for pasture turnout. It would also give owners with laminitic horses a fighting chance. I'm really struggling with this "either - or" way of thinking that stabling or grass livery/turnout are the only viable options.

[Deleted]

I think DIY would disappear because it's already very difficult to run a DIY livery business here and make any money. Many of the big yards here don't offer DIY or assisted livery, it's all part and full livery becasue that's how they cover the cost of the rent.

If YO's then have to start investing considerable amounts of money into tracks, barns and yards... well then the livery price goes up to pay for it... and DIY livery here already ranges from £25-45pw.

Mags I totally agree, but I know of one lovely couple who were running an IH minded yard, had a yard full of happy horses and owners then after one year's tenancy the land owner kicked them out, other YO's locally told me that that is very common, which is why they are never keen to invest their own money into someone else's land/ facilities.

[mandal]

~I see what you mean Michelle. These things can evolve though over time if the will is there surely.

[Deleted]

hopefully Mandal, but in the mean time I don't think we should all be guilt tripping people who can't turn their horses out all day every day.

One day I will win the lottery and start a lovely big IH yard where it will all be DIY and grass livery with help when required, and there will be lots of lovely stony winter tracks and barns.... but in the mean time lol!

[jen1]

i think in total, my 1 acre woodchip turnout area will be costing in the region of £600, we do have the machinary , but it isnt costing the earth, i think the answer lays with looking at agriculture , the cows have turn out/all be it covered or uncovered, in winter well a lot do, its a minimum stipulation of defra, they get to live in a herd, do why shouldnt horses, has anyone read the natural horse by martha kylie worthington?

[Azrael]

Our using the school for winter turnout has worked so well that we're going to try to get a similar turnout area done in addition to the school next year so they can spend more time out without making a mess of the school. Until then we're going for quality over quantity and letting them enjoy bouncing around in the school with their friends instead of standing around in nasty clay mud pit of a field. I'm surprised more yards don't offer that kind of thing. And anyone that thinks lack of turnout in fields is to keep ponies clean and avoid hassle should have seen the state of my coblet after rolling in wet sand tonight ;D

[jen1]

i think the problem lays with the old addage that horses dont need much more than an acre each, like i said ive got 6 on 50 acre ,and there still manageing to trash it,

[donnalex]

The weather has changed since the one acre per horse saying was invented though Jen. The winters are warmer and wetter and the summers are wetter too so the land never gets the chance to recover like it used to do. People think that land is to keep their horses exercised, they dont work them before expecting to turn them out, no they want to watch them slice the land up.
The using of all weather turnout facilities is a good compromise but will the DIY customers spend the time poo picking as if it is not done religiously then the turnout area will end up being a health hazard that is not much better than the muddy field.
Some horses need loads of haylage and some need none at all, their hay soaked for hours, these different types of horses cant be mixed in a system like this, that is why stables have become the norm, horses have such different needs. Cows are all either milking or breeding or milking so their needs are virtually the same, maybe a little different on their hard feed requirements but thats it and cows dont wear metal shoes to hurt each other and even if they did we dont want to ride them so a slight limp does not affect the cows future too much.
A bucnh of healthy young TB broodmares all at the same stage of pregnancy would be different.
My old boss used to have two barns of horses that were not working. One was full of TB stores growing on for the future, they were two and three years old and had plenty of top quality seed hay, ad lib. He also had a barn full of retired/out of work hunters and chasers, they were all fed on meadow type hay as they were mature animals on maintenance ration. Then he had eight horses in work, four point to pointers and four hunters. They all lived in individual stables, had different work routines, different feeds, all rugged up and clipped out. Says it all really, one owner and and all having different keep requirements. Imagine how complicated it would get with different owners and different types/breeds/ages of horses!

[Yann]

I think the tradition of horses as working animals has a lot to do with how people's expectations have been shaped and why few people question these practices which presumably directly contravene animal welfare legislation in many cases.

I get the impression that horses in proper hard work cope much better with little or no turnout, since their needs are being met to some extent, but it's often at the very least problematic for lightly worked leisure horses.