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Post by Zuzan on Dec 1, 2009 14:27:29 GMT 1
What I get from this thread is that IH is a work in progress... always striving for something better.... Lisap basically summed it all up for me
Science is part of how we improve or ways of working with horses but there is ART and HEART too... which are difficult to quantify / measure... and very personal and subjective...
I do think we need to respect each other's ART and HEART and not just the science bit... and make allowances for our very personal and subjective thoughts ...
I feel that sometimes this board can turn into a holy than tho competition.. who cares most... I feel we need to acknowledge we all care ... deeply... and keep the discussion objective
Modified as part of my quote from lisap's post "fell out" of the quote marks..
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Post by mandal on Dec 1, 2009 14:33:07 GMT 1
Very true and very moving post Zuzan.
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Caroline
Grand Prix Poster
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 2,277
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Post by Caroline on Dec 1, 2009 14:40:21 GMT 1
I think we need to move forward positively with this thread. I *will* keep defending if people keep attacking (unless banned of course!). So let's stick to the issue of bucking and solutions please. Kelly's post seems a good point to move forward with... I'm all for looking for a better way than the buckstopper! Rules (IMO) - it's got to be suited to the 'real world' i.e. not one of us who are likely to say 'hey I don't care if my horse does buck he live out the rest of his days in a field' (which a lot of us here would). It's got to be 'real life person' says 'this horse is going to be put down' or you're a groom and you've got to ride the horse and you are frigtened you're going to get injured. My first thought (if you can stay on) is actually pulling up and circling as the penalty for the horse. I have used that pre-MOnty days. It didn't actually work very well (!) I can't think of a totally positive way to do it i.e. reward when they are not bucking - I think bucking riders off is the ultimate reinforcement for a horse! You could ride in circles and feed treats I guess. In the Windsor TRec on youtube I use that with Pie just to calm him before the S bend. Firstly, I think it would be a positive thing if we were to share the joys of non-ridden relationships with horses. It would help everyone enjoy relationships with horses, whether or not they are riding relationships - that has to be good for horses, for riders and non-riding owners and for people who physicaly can't ride. Next - I think trainers should avoid allowing themselves to be held to ransom and forced to do things they don't really want to. I think it is too easy for owners to stamp their feet and insist on a quick solution or "the pony gets it!". It's a grey area and there are unfortunately some horrible people around so being firm with people can be very hard if they are a lot more unpleasant than the person trying to reason with them. The horse always has to come first. As to immediate riding solutions.... How about bending to a stop (in a similar way to stopping a bolt)? It's hard for a horse to buck when his neck is bent. Longer term... It seems to be more intelligent horsemanship to try to get a good understanding of the bucking of an individual horse. With time, thought and the methods suggested earlier (dummy riders, sand bags - and a better relationship), we can maybe get to the bottom of individual cases. I don't think there is any shame in insisting on taking a little time to find a gentle and effective solution. If there is just the 20 mins to save the life - well sure, go ahead and put the buck stopper on. I think all of us would use a few minutes of pain to save a life if the situation was starkly black and white beyond question. But we must do that acknowledging what we are doing. The world isn't perfect and we do what we have to when we *have* to. In demos, for example, I think it would be reasonable to demonstrate the first steps of the slower process to heal a bucker. If demo buckers are always accompanied by "solve it now or I shoot" owners, then obviously this will not be possible. In which case, Monty does have a good opportunity to say that it is better to take more time about it but that this method can work if it is a time-critical life or death situation. Monty has tremendous power and influence in the horse world. He could be telling people to be less disposable in their attitude to horses. I would very much like to see that. Maybe people would listen if it came from him.
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Post by Yann on Dec 1, 2009 14:52:10 GMT 1
I think it's fair to say that the majority of people on here already value their horses as more than something to ride, and would keep their much loved horse whether it could be ridden or not. That isn't the case generally though, and unless you have your own land a horse will never be popular as a pet as they're simply too expensive to keep otherwise, when compared to the alternatives.
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Post by beany1 on Dec 1, 2009 15:29:36 GMT 1
Absolutely Yann. I remember when I first discovered Perfect Manners, I discovered the concept of 'ground work', and realising that without a good relationship on the ground I may as well forget a good ridden relationship.
MTA - Kelly, the Dr was right - in hospital fluids are withdrawn for dying patients, for their comfort.
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Post by wendyihts on Dec 1, 2009 15:37:34 GMT 1
I seem to remember reading that some of these particular horses with whom the buckstopper has been used were the kind of horse that were absolutely too dangerous to ride. Like, they'd already hospitalised people? (I remember getting launched off a confirmed bucker once and all I knew was that, within a split second of applying a very quiet canter aid, I was sailing through the air. Quicker reaction times than us makes getting a single rein aid on nigh on impossible! Though later I realised that if we're talking in those terms, for the most part you shouldn't be riding them anyway! ) And, just to clarify, in our search for an alternative to the buckstopper, is it OK to use a tactic that basically tells the horse 'no' when it bucks as well as 'yes' when it carries something without bucking? Or are we looking at purely +R?
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indigo
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,242
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Post by indigo on Dec 1, 2009 15:40:24 GMT 1
Well I have to say I really enjoyed reading most of this thread BUT.... and it's quite a big one, why is it that so many people seem to be struggleing with such fragile ego's that they insist on telling us what they believe about everthing in an unsolicicted way. I am flabbergasted that people can be so niaeve and egocentric as to believe that their belief alone is enough to make an oppinion into a fact (if there even is such a thing).
To be honest I don't think that anyone really does, I believe that personal insecurity is at the base of all the preaching that occurs. If people are so very sure that they are right why why why are they so cross about wether anyone agrees with them or not? And why do they feel the need to tell others that they are wrong. I have many oppinions, some of them very strongly held, I will express them if someone asks me a direct question, but if they do not agree with me that is fine, we both would have our reasons for our conlusions. I try costantly to remember that I have not lived their life, stood in their shoes, or thought their thoughts. I would like it if people afforded me the same courtesy, but to be honest if they don't I take that into account as well and just let it go, if they are not in that place my anger would do nothing help my cause or theirs.
Open debate is great, but it seems that people are constantly trying to one up each other on how much they care or how much they've done. I can't really understand why, surley differing points of view will not converge if both parties are trying to give more worth to their argument simply by trying to prove that they are in some twisted and subjective way more compassionate?
For the record I do disagree with nearly everything that Tess said in the origional post and I do not fully understand her motives for needing to tell us, but that's ok, her motives are what they are as are her oppinions. I hope they help you to achieve what you want in life Tess, I doubt however that you would gain much of a following until you can apply the same theories of respect and compassion to people as you seem to want to with horses.
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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 1, 2009 15:45:26 GMT 1
Honoured?! That's very nice but RJs right - my behaviours not admirable at all - I'm just dodging proper work being here! Yes, I would use a bend on a 'quiet' bucker, I would go on to a dummy with a nervous bucker. I'm not sure I'm that keen on the sand bag idea - I know Monty's say it's used a lot and can work as uncomfortable every time bags slap horse but hmmm... What we're talking about is the horse that's learned to buck though. Let's imagine him now, a 5 year old Irish draft cross (M says they are the best for professional buckers) 17 hands, vet says he's never seen a horse fitter or more athletic ...
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Post by jennyb on Dec 1, 2009 15:48:25 GMT 1
Re bending the neck - the very action of a violent bucker means that the neck is often pretty much locked. You'd have to haul on one rein to bend the neck round sufficiently. And even then, that might not stop the bucking - but it's a heck of a lot harder to sit to a bucker which is bent round!! Is hauling on one rein (and I mean really hauling) better than using a buckstopper? Or is that another debate entirely....
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Post by wendyihts on Dec 1, 2009 15:53:11 GMT 1
Hmm, you could seriously injure a horse with a tight one-reiner like that, Jen, you're right. There's a page on just that in my James Rooney book 'The Lame Horse' about how it's a good way to break various bones in the forehand of the opposite side.
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Post by Zoe RA on Dec 1, 2009 16:10:23 GMT 1
I have just picked myself up off the floor after howling with laughter at the thought of me being a Mod
Caroline, I know it is a common myth in some circles that I am a Mod - and has been for a number of years - but please will you pass it around and hopefully thereby dispelling the myth once and for all?!
I am not a Mod here, nor have I ever been, nor would I ever be! I think they do a fabby job, and don't envy them one little bit.
I will repeat:
I, Zoe Chipman, am not an IHDG Moderator. End of!!
So, if anybody tells anybody else that I AM a Mod, they are not telling the truth That makes it nice and easy doesn't it?
;D
Hey, what do you guys mean about me being too blond and fluffy and naughty and and and
Im all hurt now
;D
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Post by donnalex on Dec 1, 2009 16:14:12 GMT 1
Donnalex - as the woman who proposed that the RSPCA hold an annual euthanasia drive for old and unrideable horses, you are not in a great position to lecture me on ethics. I think both you and everyone else know that I am referring to the old, clapped out and forgotten horses and ponies that are rotting in fields because their owners cant face dealing with them. The oncoming winter is the time of year when the owners can be reasoned with the most, both for financial and welfare reasons they can be asked to think it through more thoroughly. It is all too easy to put it out of their mind in the summer or when the winter is nearly over. And if Zoe is a mod I would like to be one too So Caroline you have no alternative to offer yourself to the buckstopper then? And neither are you willing to mount the next one and give it a go? The buckstopper will put less pain on the horses mouth than a pair of draw reins or a bit in the wrong hands. Think rough show jumper types who will make the horse stop or slow down no matter what. At least the horse is in charge of how much pressure to apply to the gadget in his mouth. The horse carrying the aggressive rider is whacked back into canter if it breaks to trot when the brakes are applied. We have all seen them at shows like this. And all the novice riders hanging onto their horses mouths for balance will have caused much more damage to a horses mouth as well. And the horse gets to carry his head in a normal relaxed position which is not allowed by a rider who fears the horse is going to buck, that rider will keep the horses head in as much as possible to lessen the chance of a big buck unseating them. That is if they can get on in the first place!
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Post by wabuska on Dec 1, 2009 17:36:59 GMT 1
Zoe... just kidding..... really...... X
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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 1, 2009 18:40:58 GMT 1
She must be a Rocker then - gosh must be some old person told me about Mods and Rockers ;D
Honestly (everyone) the 'alternative to a buckstopper' is a genuine effort to find something better - not a chance to have a dig at anyone. There is something about tying there tail to ? something (can't remember what) but would that be an improvement? Any other ideas or things people have heard of? People are mostly told to hit them on every buck. Saw someone at Newbury Show being bucked off doing that.
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Post by Mellymoo on Dec 1, 2009 19:10:29 GMT 1
I can't think of anything that would not cause pain, but perhaps that may be the only way to stop a confirmed bucker? The association that something may cause pain works for people - when I was little I used to like sticking my fingers into plug sockets, so I used to get a wee slap on the hand - I wondered for years why I didn't like putting my hands near sockets, and was enlightened by mother a few years ago! The only way I can think of is to stop the horse putting his head down, but then we come to the bearing rein thing in black beauty, which is brutal. I don't know anything about the buckstopper, but if it is that or a bullet then I know what route I would go down. *puts on tin hat and runs off to hide with Jos* ;D
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