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Post by Yann on Jul 20, 2009 22:44:48 GMT 1
Was reading the excellent and very interesting article on Laminitis on www.hoofrehab.com when the following paragraph caught my eye: Would this go some way to explaining why so many horses only start to display obvious LGL issues in terms of sensitivity and inflammation once their shoes come off? Are shoes actually doing more than masking the symptoms by reducing hoof function? That said they clearly don't prevent laminitis and the peripheral wall loading will potentially make things worse in a full blown episode. As I've previously posted I didn't see what I was expecting when I put shoes back on my LGL horses, and after careful and continuing observation the cob with otherwise decent feet has ended up back living out 24/7 with no obvious problem for the first time in 3 years. I've no illusions about shoes and shoeing and their effect on the feet, and I'd much rather not have done it but it does seem to have been the right thing for them otherwise. Does this help explain why shoeing is the default for almost all working horses in this country? Any thoughts? |
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 20, 2009 23:21:51 GMT 1
IMO no, you are talking chalk and cheese there. Experimentally causing a huge and short term reduction in circulation can prevent experimental carbohydrate overload laminitis developing - that is the kind where there is an acute excess of toxic/trigger factors that obviously have to get to the feet in order to affect the feet.
Your average LGL on the other hand has far more (IMO) to do with an ongoing longterm, low grade hormonal influence which compromises circulation, therefore repair and renewal and stops the foot coping with 'normal challenges'. I would suspect that if replacing shoes helped such a horse it would mean that inflammation from bruising and possibly excess hoof mechanism was contributing to the problem, and shoes overcame that. For some it will stabolise the feet. For others of course it could tip them over the edge.
Jackie
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 20, 2009 23:22:51 GMT 1
That should read 'stabilise'......
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Post by Catrin on Jul 20, 2009 23:43:06 GMT 1
... Does this help explain why shoeing is the default for almost all working horses in this country? Any thoughts? I would say shoes are the norm because most people expect to need them. After that, it is very difficult to keep hooves in good condition on soft ground, and the diet available to grass fed horses in UK, is not compatible with good hoof condition. When my horses lived in Austria, they had hard ground under their feet in summer, in the meadows full of a large range of plants. The diet and environment were excellent for horses' feet. In winter they were on concrete more or ground covered in hard packed dry snow. They eat the same summer pastured, dried, as their hay. They never had an abscess or laminitis. We got an overweight, laminitic rescue mare, she abscessed the first week we had her, but recovered completely after losing weight, and on restricted grazing on hard ground, the next spring. |
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Post by geeup on Jul 21, 2009 9:55:41 GMT 1
Good discussion idea Yann, and some intersting knowedlge and thoughts.
Such observations will eventually provide a definitve answer, I just don't know enougth. The problem with theories that havn't been proved is that they often stop us looking at facts and tha we can become biased to other clues. I think its good that people are still thinking thorugh thoughts and ideas.
Yann : your idea got me thinking, what else would cause bad circulation, horses are meant to roam for miles, but wild horses rareyl get lami, so if a horse has LGL is it in fact something else. After all ADHD, dyslaxi\ \nd autism are all similar, and often confused as different things in humans, bad example please excuse it.
Catrin your idea got me thinking:
My pony is kept in a laminitus hot spot, its often dry gound in the summer but old meadow grass virtually untreated and contains a variety of plants. Though she shows no signs of lamintus shes very fat. We also only feed her local grown food in winter and any bucket food is from Dengie as its just down the road.
I wonder however how much it depends on where they were born and the diet their mums and them had?
Does anyone have a case of a homegrown foal being kept and going on to get laminitus, one that hasn't changed routeen or pasture?
Is there any incidence of a pony/ horse who has siginifacnt managment change developing lami?
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Post by mandal on Jul 21, 2009 10:05:54 GMT 1
No idea Yann but I have suspected that shoes are actually doing something rather than just covering up. I believe in a full blown lami attack the hoof does shut off circulation itself to the hoof proper as part of the general body shock process. If shoes do have an effect like this i actually don't think it good long term as I'm sure the reduced blood supply will compromise the health of living tissue within the hoof.  Mta... just wondering also as to the developmental age of feet of many horses in this country as well as incidence of thrush etc. If many have feet developed to only a 2-3 year old then imo the internal structures have a long way to go to be fully developed and I wonder if this is true to some extent of the vascular development in the foot? |
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Post by geeup on Jul 21, 2009 10:24:56 GMT 1
canyou explai more mandal, why do they have development of a 2-3 yr old?Do shod hooves have different structures to unshod? Or m I reading that wrong?
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Post by geeup on Jul 21, 2009 10:32:27 GMT 1
found this : don't know how acurate it is, its the web after all.
Why Not Shoes
Most people shoe their horse because they believe it protects the hoof, but are often unaware of the negative effects of this practice. Although a metal shoe may protect the hoof wall from chipping, it impedes other natural functions and causes adverse consequences. Some of these include:
Decreased Shock Absorption: Shoes decrease the hoof’s ability to absorb shock by 70-80% by not allowing the hoof to expand properly upon weight bearing. In 1983, a study at the University of Zurich found “a shod horse walking on pavement receives three times the impact force as an unshod horse trotting on that surface.” The excess force must then be taken up by the legs damaging joints, tendons, and even the lungs which were not designed to deal with this force.
Metal Vibration Damages Tissue: A doctorial thesis at the University of Zurich found that metal horseshoes vibrate at about 800 Hz, a frequency damaging to living tissue. This type of circulation and neural conditions in humans is called Raynaud’s Syndrome. We must realize that every step a shod horse takes is damaging tissues throughout the body, setting him up for chronic conditions such as arthritis.
Decreased Blood Circulation: Each hoof is actually a secondary circulatory pump which supports the heart in circulating blood throughout the body. When the natural expansion and contraction of the hoof is diminished by shoes or unbalanced hooves, this important blood flow is hindered, putting the horse at a disadvantage not only in his hooves but his whole body.
Decreased Traction: Metal shoes do not give the amount of traction on slippery ground, pavement, or rocks as an unshod hoof. A natural barefoot uses the skid-break action of the bars, suction-cup effect upon weight bearing, and the ability to “feel” the ground as an all-terrain tool.
Damage by Nails: Nails weaken the hoofwall in addition to contributing to tissue damage from the vibrational frequency. Since old nail holes do not close-up, they leave the hoof vulnerable to bacteria as well as temperature extremes.
Hoof Contraction: When a hoof grows, it does so not only in length but also in diameter. Since the metal shoe doesn’t become wider, it contracts the growing hoof in a squeezed position. Proper hoof function (contracting and expanding) is hindered and the hoof is forced into the all too narrow hoof shape. Contracted hooves are oval rather than round and have very narrow frogs and heel bulbs.
Prevents Development of Young Horse’s Feet: A horse’s coffin bone grows and develops until they are about five years old. If a horse is shod before that age, the constricting influence of the shoe prevents normal growth of this all important bone, predisposing the horse to lifetime hoof problems.
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Post by mandal on Jul 21, 2009 11:13:03 GMT 1
canyou explai more mandal, why do they have development of a 2-3 yr old?Do shod hooves have different structures to unshod? Or m I reading that wrong? For a horses foot to develop properly it need loads of foot falls aka movement from birth to develop the digital cushion and lateral cartilages, the main support and shock absorbing strutures in the back of the foot. For example the digital cushion at birth is a fatty lump of tissue... impacts which compress it gradually encourage the production of cartilaginous threads (for a want of a better word) through the fatty tissue gradually strengthening it. If a foot doesn't have enough pressure to these structures they don't develop properly so the foot is weakened and is of a younger developmental age so is immature to function properly as the horse grows bigger. No the structures are not different but if foals are not trimmed regularly to keep the heels and walls low allowing pressure/stimulation and or don't get enough movement then the development of the foot falls behind the horses actual age. I hope I've explained that properly though simply... this is my understanding anyway. So if a horse is shod at an early age then this develpment is slowed down the foot weakens etc. etc. Ooops, apologies Yann.  |
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Post by Yann on Jul 21, 2009 13:41:56 GMT 1
Apologies?  What for?  That's fine  Can you elaborate, I don't think I've heard this theory before? I've also idly wondered whether there is a hormonal as well as dietary aspect to this. My Tb gets splat feet every late spring / early summer, which resolve completely over the winter. This year, particularly with her being shod I really went to town on her grass intake, she was stabled at night and muzzled during the day, with a slightly enlarged hole. It was a balancing act though because I also needed to keep some condition on her. Her hooves still flared quite badly, but the farrier has done a really good damage limitation job (unlike the last one I used...). Both my horses do OK unshod over winter, especially the cob who has regularly verged on rock crunching status only to lose it again. Unlike the Tb her feet are pretty good structurally, so it's not a lack of ability to cope with normal challenges so much as something temporarily acting to reduce it. Reducing the amount of hoof function does seem to directly influence the amount of tenderness and inflammation in the foot of an LGL horse, which is what prompted my original question. I think I've read this before, most of the points are valid but some might be overstated, like the vibration issue, which presumably only applies if the horse is being ridden on a hard surface. |
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Post by geeup on Jul 21, 2009 13:55:51 GMT 1
theres some interesting points though. Keeping LGl at bay is my current project. Has there ever been a study on how foals are kept and the incidence of lGL later in life?
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Post by mandal on Jul 21, 2009 14:01:56 GMT 1
theres some interesting points though. Keeping LGl at bay is my current project. Has there ever been a study on how foals are kept and the incidence of lGL later in life? I don't know but it would be interesting. Don't forget though LGL is most often caused by high sugar diet and or metabloic issues and possible mineral imbalances/deficiency not underdeveloped hoof structure per se. I should add here that as far as I know! I'm sure the immature hoof is more prone to all hoof ailments including thrush etc. though. |
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Post by Mrs Craig on Jul 21, 2009 15:46:53 GMT 1
Can you elaborate, I don't think I've heard this theory before? I've also idly wondered whether there is a hormonal as well as dietary aspect to this. My Tb gets splat feet every late spring / early summer, which resolve completely over the winter. I think Jackie is talking about Metabolic Syndrome, Insulin Resistance and/or Cushings. Henry, for example did not have lami for 16yrs, despite being fat for many of those. Last year, he got it for the first time. He's come down with it again this year, EXACTLY same time of year (almost to the day), despite being slim, on MagOx and fit as a fiddle. In fact, he's looking ribby on his diet of ad lib soaked hay and Bailey's Lo Cal! Thankfully I caught it earlier than last year, so I'm hoping very little damage to the integrity of the laminae. It would make sense that a hormonal case would develop lami at a certain point of the year, as many hormones are influenced by daylight length (those produced by the pituitary gland, for example). I'm a Biochemist, not an endocrinologist, so I'm not even going to attempt to make sense of it all. Regardless of the cause, though, it would, to a point, make sense that reducing blood supply to the hoof would reduce the influx of toxins and their effect upon the breakdown of the laminae, which result in the separation. |
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Post by geeup on Jul 21, 2009 15:54:05 GMT 1
has any one got any idea which hormones it could be and if diet effects this.
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Post by arabmania on Jul 21, 2009 20:50:23 GMT 1
one point to note though is that shod horses do have reduced circulation to the foot. This often results in LGL, or even full blown laminitis not being picked up immediately as a pulse is not easily detected until its too late.
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What for? 
