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Post by beany1 on Jul 21, 2009 21:38:31 GMT 1
I think Yann is saying that there has been NO sign of LGL with his horse shod, no pulses, no tenderness, nothing, so is it there at all, rather than being masked?
KC believes the internal arch supports the pedal bone and keeps it in position, and rotation is caused by deterioration in the arch and cartilages - rather than the damage to the laminae causing the rotation. I asked him how a flush of spring grass could cause cartilage damage, and he explained about the hormone responses.
As for the LGL and shoes, I find it really interesting, I think that maybe Mandal could be right, and that decreased circulation could eventually compromise the healthy function of those structures. I guess until laminitis is fully understood, there will only be theories and speculation!
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Post by Yann on Jul 21, 2009 21:57:23 GMT 1
The effect or not of reduced circulation and hoof function in shoes was the reason I posted this thread As far as not spotting laminitis until its too late goes, that's the conventional barefoot wisdom on the subject. However having looked after a shod laminitic pony for 18 months I'm not so sure signs of trouble before a crisis are that difficult to spot if you're keeping an eye out for them. Got you. Is there any correlation with him being shod and then barefoot? It's just that my experience with Rio was pretty much just that. She was a prime candidate for laminitis when we bought her, grossly overwieght and being fed a disastrous diet, and yet never suffered a day's unsoundness or any obvious hoof issues. When she was barefoot, slim, fit, fed an ideal diet and worked hard it was a different story more than once during monsoon summer weather. ETA, cross posted with you Beany1 - It would be bold of me to say there is nothing there at all, but if there is something then it isn't at all obvious.
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Post by beany1 on Jul 21, 2009 22:03:14 GMT 1
It's so interesting Yann, you have a Phd waiting for you!
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Post by Yann on Jul 21, 2009 22:03:58 GMT 1
Either that or a rude awakening ;D
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Post by JackieJATaylor on Jul 22, 2009 0:25:23 GMT 1
It is also worth remembering that horses with Pre-Cushingoid conditions do typically develop laminitis for the first time in their teens, so they can seem 'fine for years' and then start to get trouble simply because they are reaching the age when either the condition deteriorates enough to affect the feet, or years of unseen hormonal imbalances (high insulin or cortisol) start to take their toll on the vascular structures. Time marches on.
Jackie
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Post by geeup on Jul 22, 2009 9:17:56 GMT 1
I agree that there seems to be a connection between reduced ciruclation and laminitus being "held off" or "masked". it seems that this would amke an interesting long term study. Ponies and horses coming out of work when older are often de shod. So is laminitus about weight gain, or just a symptom of not enougth work being done. I still think it would be interesting to look at foals and how they are kept, right through till the end. Its a shame that horse passports don't contain horse bloggs. It would make an interesting study to see if we do effect laminitus by certain methods of care such as foals turn out and food, or elderly horses being shod or shoes taken off for retirement. Maybe its a bit like humans, we should have them on all the time or off all their lives. does anyone know when laminitus was first recognised as a horse illnes?
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Post by Yann on Jul 22, 2009 12:12:26 GMT 1
I am aware of the increased susceptibility to these sorts of problems with age, and of course that too could be a factor with some of these cases. As could the recent onset of very wet summers, long periods of grazing on constantly waterlogged grass seemed to be one of Rio's triggers.
It would be fascinating to know if there is a link between LGL and history, be it the amount of hoof development allowed as a foal, the age of first shoeing and any periods of obesity or illness. I do wonder if there's a genetic weakness involved which has been overlooked because of widespread shoeing. Some breeds seem more susceptible than others, Tbs for example, whereas you can have one cob or welshie who never takes a false step and another that's footy on any grass at all.
Unlike my cob, my Tb with poor feet does appear to show some hoof warmth and raised pulses periodically in shoes, but again they don't appear to affect her soundness in any way. Before I had her shod she had raised pulses and heat in one foot and was lame on it, presumably as a result of compensating for problems in the other limb. As well as muzzling her I turned her out in hoof boots, and she came sound again immediately, and the heat and pulses disappeared. It does appear that weak hoof structure does also play a part in making horses susceptible to problems, and that the sugars or other issues with the grass intake reduce the foot's ability to cope.
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Post by beany1 on Jul 22, 2009 12:18:46 GMT 1
I thought you meant that your TB has no sign of LGL ie no pulses or warmth - surely then the shoes are masking it and that isn't good?
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Post by Yann on Jul 22, 2009 12:59:40 GMT 1
It's my cob that doesn't, and it's my cob that got me thinking about all this. My Tb appears fine most of the time, but I have found a raised pulse once or twice. I'm cautious with heat and pulses though unless they don't correspond with the weather and the temperature of the rest of the horse, I think it's far too easy to read too much into them. Like my cob she's generally been way better with shoes on than without them, although in her case I have taken measures to keep her grass intake down until recently. For her putting shoes back on was a tentative act and the right thing for her at that particular point in time. I agree that it's masking issues, but since I'm well aware of them and my horse is sound and moving correctly 24/7 it's the least worst option for us at the moment. I know I can't fix her feet where we are, and there's no guarantee we could do it anywhere else either. Sticking her in a stable or a starvation paddock isn't an option due to other issues, so it's a case of making the best of a bad job. I'll pull the shoes in the autumn and on previous performance we'll have the feet as good as they're going to get again by next spring. In the mean time she's fit, happy and comfortable, and I've not had to give her any bute to help her out for ages
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Post by Susan on Jul 22, 2009 13:06:41 GMT 1
I Unlike my cob, my Tb with poor feet does appear to show some hoof warmth and raised pulses periodically in shoes, but again they don't appear to affect her soundness in any way. Before I had her shod she had raised pulses and heat in one foot and was lame on it, presumably as a result of compensating for problems in the other limb. As well as muzzling her I turned her out in hoof boots, and she came sound again immediately, and the heat and pulses disappeared. It does appear that weak hoof structure does also play a part in making horses susceptible to problems, and that the sugars or other issues with the grass intake reduce the foot's ability to cope. I think from what I have read Yann..that shoes are indeed masking more then you realise. Out of shoes you had raised pulses and heat and showing lameness. What degree you do not say. Then you go onto say in shoes it only happens periodically. In boots she was sound no heat or pulses but you did restict her grazing in the muzzle. There are so many differencials here to judge it on. From my own perspective.. you may recall last year Flynn was grossly over weight. I then muzzled him but only one day when he showed footiness. I had had this happen so often before and used all sorts of excuses why. But I checked his pulses something I had done periodically but not when he seemed footy before. He had raised pulses.. He was taken off the grass immediatly next day pulses went. He was kept off the grass for 4 days then he went into very restricted area in muzzle or stabled on soaked hay. As grass went in his little area he only had soaked hay. Now weight came off.. his lack of rich grass was restricted radically. I now believe he had LGL and all those times before it was also LGL. Since that weight loss.. we only had one incident of footiness and that was mild ..when he had one night at Junes not muzzled at all. That was a year ago. We have not had another incident.. he handles stones in carpark fine and even under saddle. He will show issues on hack with lots of stoney tracks if I didnt put his boots on fronts. He will happily hack on roads of tarmac and concrete with no problems unbooted. For my belief circulation is increased in unshod feet and they do show up issues sooner to listen to. I was at the end of my tether when he went footy just before the diet happened so much so I was about to book a farrier and shoe him, thinking he simply could not cope unshod. Nothing more I could do and it really was not fair to him. I now thank god I didnt as according to my vet shoes do mask feelings more and by the time I had the bell ring it would have not been LGL but full blown. I do think we had two issues going on, the grass and the excess weight. nether were condusive to good feet.
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Post by Susan on Jul 22, 2009 13:08:20 GMT 1
KC also says excess weight will also affect the ability of the foot to do as good as it should. I think Flynn is an example of that.
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Post by Yann on Jul 22, 2009 13:17:07 GMT 1
No, they aren't masking more than I realise But the fact remains that a horse that was continually footy on stones through the summer and had episodes of heat and pulses hardly has any now even out 24/7 and is even comfortable ridden over rocks, which I didn't expect at all. My biggest problem with her isn't too much weight but not enough, even with a slightly enlarged muzzle hole I had to pile the feed into her to keep her on the right side of poor. Which may well have negated the muzzle of course, even low sugar feed has enough in it if you feed a lot. As I've said before, sometimes you have to take stock and decide when you've been doing something for long enough whether what you're doing is actually working or in the best interest of the whole horse.
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Post by Zuzan on Jul 22, 2009 13:40:49 GMT 1
having read whole thread .. I think you've pretty much exhausted all the variables .. at least that we know about regarding LGL / Laminitis... that's the trouble we don't have the knowledge.. yet.. and fwiw I think shoeing once you've exhausted all avenues is probably a realistic / best option..
I really don't think being dogmatic about being barefoot helps...
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Post by Yann on Jul 22, 2009 13:56:56 GMT 1
That's what we all assume, but if the horse never showed a propensity for laminitis in shoes, and doesn't appear to be any more susceptible once they're back on is this actually the case?
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Post by wendyihts on Jul 22, 2009 14:07:29 GMT 1
Ooo, I'm just reading an interesting book about lifestyle and aging (it's for research purposes purely, you see, not that I am worried about aging or nuffink! ) I'm only at the beginning chapters at the moment but the guy who wrote it, who's some kind of medical specialist in aging, talks about the body needing to keep a fine balance between growth and decay. Decay is the default setting - he refers to it is a continuous low level tide taking us towards decay. But our early and then ongoing activity levels are what tell the body to grow, repair and renew (classic 'use it or lose it') and which resist the 'decay tide'. As he points out, the physical brain that deals with this part of the body (and includes the hormone system) is remarkably similar across species - we've all inherited it from the dinosaurs! In our own case, this part of our brain is still the same as it was when homo sapiens evolved tens of thousands of years ago so as far as the physical brain is concerned, it still thinks we're living as hunter gatherers and is applying the same rules! Same goes for horses, who were domesticated even later than that and who have been living a sedentary, non-nomadic, none challenging lifestyle for FAR, FAR less than that (say the last 70 years or so). The theory goes that during the 'good times', we (and horses and all other animals), eat smaller amounts more regularly (grazing!) but overall move more in order to get that food and in play, copulation etc. Think about the African plains after the rains. When famine arrives, animals tend to change their behaviour patterns, limit their physical output to only what is necessary, have reduced social interactions (especially with animals from outside their own herds/groups) and their eating patterns go from grazing to eating with interspersed periods of fasting. You can see those patterns in modern equine and human lifestyles! But what it means in practice is that a sedentary lifestyle, where we are under-stimulated mentally and physically, leads to rapid decay from the end of middle age until we eventually fall off the perch. It might not shorten our lives drastically - but it certainly drastically reduces our health and well-being in those later years. Thinking about modern domestic equine lifestyles, we've forced a psychologically and physically sedentary lifestyle upon them too. I wonder if the ponies used by Mongolian herdsmen age and have problems with Cushings/IR and all these other problems (e.g. osteoarthritis) later in their lives. We're keeping horses, as far as the hindbrain is concerned, in a perpetual famine and wondering why their body is decaying. A sedentary lifestyle tells hindbrains - this being's spring has passed, time to start thinking about moving them closer to the edge to make way for the next generation. In other words, all these problems are evolution's perfect response to the lifestyle we've foisted upon them. Health for the species at the expense of the individual. Anyway - it's an interesting book.....
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