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Post by Yann on Jun 17, 2009 14:20:14 GMT 1
Whatever you decide to do in your difficult circumstances has to be the best for her. If cost is a major consideration in the short term shoeing in front only is going to be cheaper than paying an EP and buying boots. Another 12 months or whatever shod is going to be neither here nor there.
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Post by taklishim on Jun 17, 2009 16:15:43 GMT 1
Well my 1st DAEP trimmer told me back then that there was no point buying boots for her as they wouldn't fit for very long, so i didn't buy them then on her advice, I did however get the sole mate pads on her advice and I will persevere in getting the darn things to stay on. Rant away, but when considering peoples finances thing about how little information some trimmers give you when starting you barefoot. Personally looking back I now firmly believe the 1st visit should go a LOT more in depth into the possible routes and things that may or may not happen. I agree with you entirely Gixer as I have come across this before (ie the failure to advise re boots) with DAEP's and I do not find it acceptable. It makes me question their training. Perhaps a DAEP will come on and advise what training is given to them by KC as part of their course in selecting and fitting boots. I would expect any trimmer of any sort to be able to advise the owner if boots are required, what the cost will be and to be ready to fit them BEFORE letting the owner contemplate taking their shoes off. For some owners with good facilities, good feet etc then boots may not be needed however many have less than perfect conditions and they need to be aware of the cost of boots when making their decision to go BF. Several years ago I went to a Pete Ramey course. We were told that if we wanted him to remove shoes and trim feet we had to agree to buying boots which he fitted on shoe removal (if he considered it necessary) To me that should be the norm. It was always my understanding that to justify the high charges of barefoot trimming trimmers offered considerably more advice and help than farriers and this covered not only boots but environment, diet, and everything else surrounding BF. I appreciate there are 2 sides to every story but in your case something clearly went very wrong. I hope that when trimmers leave their clients after the first visit the client is left with a serious dose of "realism" not some airey fairy view of barefoot equine valhalla. Pat ps why after all this time are people still taping pads to feet. Most people worked out yonks ago that pads stay on better in boots and it is LOT easier for the owner.
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Post by Casper on Jun 17, 2009 16:50:43 GMT 1
Without getting drawn into the in's and out's of what has and hasn't happened regarding the OP's horse and her transition to barefoot can we please be a bit respectful regarding the original DEAP, who is known to many of us on here.
She is no longer our trimmer for geographical reasons but set Bobby and I, and many other DG horses on the barefoot journey superbly and I have nothing but praise and admiration for her.
Tin hat firmly on and no offence meant to anyone.
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pd
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,367
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Post by pd on Jun 17, 2009 17:10:50 GMT 1
Hi Gixer, I talked to you on EE as well. Taking into account all that you have posted about your situation I strongly advise that you get your horse reshod for now.
In my opinion for you to succeed with this type of horse barefoot you will need to stable him half of each day all year round (to limit the intake of grass) and use boots with pads in them for riding on any hard surfaces. I think you need to know this now as you are currently heading for a long and frustrating summer if you proceed as you are doing.
All horses CAN go barefoot, but some need far more support in order to do so and some horses never manage to transition to be able to do all disciplines barefoot. Its not for every owner/horse combination.
I offer you this advice from my experience along the way (now 4.5 years).
All the best
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Azrael
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,733
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Post by Azrael on Jun 17, 2009 18:26:19 GMT 1
Front shoes would be by far the cheaper option compared to EP trims and boots and hopefully she'd be more comfortable in shoes. There's nothing stopping you trying again or giving a break from shoes over winter when the ground isn't as hard or when you have more money to spare to spend on boots. Its not fair on her to be sore and its not fair on you to have to spend all your money on boots and expensive trims when you can't afford to if she can be kept comfortable with shoes for a lot less money. I'm all for barefoot and have all three of mine barefoot but its not always the best thing for the horse or owner and shoes used sensibly aren't some ultimate evil to be avoided at all costs.
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Adi
Intermediate Poster
Intermediate Poster
Equine Podiatrist
Posts: 139
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Post by Adi on Jun 17, 2009 19:26:40 GMT 1
I read this thread when it started and decided to keep my mouth shut. I keep reading and have now decided to give my side of events seeing as I keep getting referred to, and knowing location many people here know who I am. Gixer said I proved to be less than reliable, when in fact I did not let her down but I did let her friend down due to reasons beyond my control. I advised solemates should be used in Feb, the fact they were not cut out in June would not have helped at all. I did advise on the first visit that boots would be a waste of money at that time due to the fact the shape of her feet would change dramatically over a couple of trims, I also advised they may be needed after that. Rio was sound walking on concrete and had passed a dressage test the week before my second and last visit. I was told she was not footsore. The environment at the yard where the horse was being kept at this point was not going to present problems. LGL has been mentioned in this thread and It was also stated that I did not mention it, in Feb this was not a problem and if it had have been I would have. I personally believe with owner commitment and a decent trim Rio will do well barefoot the underrun and deformed Hoof problems can be corrected and with diet addressed and conditioning program followed I do not and did not foresee a problem. I really do not feel the need to say anymore on this particular Horse and owner, and if anyone else has anything that they feel I may have done wrong please PM me . As I will not be getting into a public debate / Hanging . Cheers have fun Adi
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Post by mags on Jun 17, 2009 19:47:10 GMT 1
I actually thought you had got support on this thread adi not a public hanging
Gixerno help im afraid but just thought id say iv been there with Dan and the up's and downs.Sore unhappy horse, Shoes back on then off again because they wouldnt stay on.
But finally now he has unbelievabley tough feet for a TB. Hard as rocks and sound as anything even hacking on the roads. But it has been really tough for the both of us. If it wasnt for the fact he didnt keep shoes on it would have been kinder on him just to reshoe him
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Post by jennyb on Jun 17, 2009 19:52:10 GMT 1
I think you've been very restrained in the circumstances Adi I'm more than happy with the job you do on Gazdag's feet, his were in a shocking state this time last year and they are fab now I understand it must be very frustrating having an intermittantly lame horse, but transitioning a long term shod horse is not always easy, cheap or quick. But I think everyone will agree that it's a sharp learning curve for the owner, and the trimmer can't be expected to offload all their knowledge on you in an hour's visit. It's down to you to do the research and ask the right questions IHMO, which you have been doing on this thread
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Post by mags on Jun 17, 2009 19:58:16 GMT 1
No something most people would want to do but Dan having the winter off and having his feet left alone during that time was the best thing I did for getting his feet right. I would never want to try and do it again with a horse with that sort of feet while there in work.
The learning curve for me was if I was going to do it to be fair I should have turned him away for it. He sounds like he has shoes on on the road now lol Really turned round this year
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Post by june on Jun 17, 2009 20:33:08 GMT 1
I've had far more success transitioning horses to barefoot by turning them out in pads rather than using boots. Reasonably often we get horses here for rehab when their feet have got so bad they are lame. Most of them have very little foot left and what is there is very weak with multiple nail holes. The thing that helps these horses the most is taping on Solemate pads and turning them out. The uneven ground helps to rebuild the hoof structures and the pads provide protection while still allowing the foot to distort fully.
If you can get the pads to stay on, and turn the horse out in them, that will help enormously. We had a young TB polo pony here for rehab the summer before last with virtually no foot left. She was constantly lame due to bruised soles. We took her shoes off and she had six weeks of turnout with pads taped on daily and by the end of the six weeks she'd grown masses of foot. She played the rest of the summer season with no issues.
I think it is a little hard on Gixer to say she shouldn't be going this route if she can't afford two sets of boots. Feet often change shape a lot in the first couple of trims and buying boots that will only be useful for a short time isn't practical for a lot of people. I understand the argument that the owner has chosen this path, not the horse, but pads are a very good and cost effective option, for something that is likely to be in the horse's best interests long term. The horse doesn't need to be sore just because owners don't have a huge bank account as long as they are happy to spend the time getting the pads to stay put.
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Post by Susan on Jun 18, 2009 0:35:15 GMT 1
Gixer I have known it was Adi you spoke fabout from early days and kept stum.. because I want to help you.. This lady knows her stuff.. and as June has said is one of the best trimmers out there.. and constantly improving and learning more along the way..BF is like that. I have said so much to try and aid you and support you because I have been there .. nothing happens in this world if you dont also help yourself.. it is why I have asked why you want to go barefoot because it is hard work at times.. it is frustrating and often you are alone out there with many around you with shod horses all going out.. and you are not. If you shoe a bad foot you will not improve it.. but if you cant give all the commitment it needs well shoe for now and try again another time.. but be aware her feet may well not take nails and keep shoes on.. Look at this foot Now isnt that terrible.. look that is what a farrier did.. it wasnt bad conformation.. it wasnt a foot that a farrier took on and couldnt get better it was how a foot of an unshod youngster he had from day one and was under his control and when I suggested how it needed to be sorted ( as I saw it get worse and believed his excuses) I was sacked as his client.. he would not even remove that shoe.. BUT Adi did.!!! . she took on Flynn as her 1st client when she qualified and she stuck by him.. and me.. but it was because I did listen and I did try and I didnt always get it right but I still kept at it.. and when I told you my brief that was how it was.. and hard work.. I have had Tim as well.. but Adi is about near me often and I also now do his feet myself with Adi backing me upp so it saves Tim.. I even attended a KC course. I have said about the pads.. and pads. and pads.. and even the slippers to put pads in.. I have not had loads of money either.. but without his feet Flynn is not good to himself or me.. I have fore gone shows.. and many things for his feet.. Oh the rides I could not do I have backed off doing so much.. but look at what we have now.. great feet.. (sorry I do need to do a newer picture.). I tried to say about the dressage and trail blazer.. it might be too much too soon.. but we all have to make our own paths.. Listen to the advice.. please.. we have been there.. I can honestly say.. gaffa tape has spent a big part in my life and so have solemates.. They are cheap as well.. and get another pair so you can reform them.. They wont break the bank.. and anytime you see gaffa tape or similar on offer get it.. as you will use loads. but it will work... Look I have even hacked out in them around the village on roads and tracks for about an hours or soo.. look at that.. If I can do it so can you.. I am NOT some sort of magic person putting on pads, it is only trial and error and learning.. just basic normal ( OK folks many who know me will say not normal at all) Susan.. trying hard to get it right and find a way.. Please do not give up.. Adi is a great trimmer.. and passonate and supportive, she aint perfect.. ( sorry Adi but nether am I..LOL) she is a good person as I am sure are you.. You love your horse and want what is best.. So,, stick with it.. use the pads.. spend time ( that costs nothing) or shoe for a bit.. ( shoes aint cheap either from what I hear) And when you get improved feet, save up for some hoofwings if you still need boots then.. honest they are magic..
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Post by Susan on Jun 18, 2009 0:44:12 GMT 1
Dont give up..s
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Post by Yann on Jun 18, 2009 8:56:19 GMT 1
It's not about 'giving up' it's about doing what's right at this current point in time. If gixer isn't prepared to buy boots or mess about endlessly with gaffa tape and pads then I don't see that there is any other option but to put shoes back on for now. It's a welfare issue otherwise.
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Post by mandal on Jun 18, 2009 9:05:56 GMT 1
This thread has become very depressing imo... Mta... as I seem to be on a mission today! Really Gixer it is in the end up to you to learn as much as you can and then make a decision based on what you believe is best. There's no getting away from it the buck stops with you in this case.
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Post by Zuzan on Jun 18, 2009 9:39:47 GMT 1
not read whole thread but it's fairly obvious that many people underestimate the time and effort it takes the owner to manage a barefoot horse and transitioning (2nd hand experience only here as never transitioned myself) can be challenging..
I really feel that people have to take responsibility to sort out the whole management side and not just rely on the trimming and yes that means making an effort to get the books and even the dvds and really swot up on the barefoot stuff.. trimming is only a part of the whole equation and in many cases the trimming is relatively insignificant part of the whole management of barefoot in relation to environment (grazing .. movement .. conditioning) nutrition and dealing with stuff like thrush and white line disease... all of which fall to the owner / yard manager / carer etc and not the trimmer.
There is an awful lot of extra effort involved for the owner / manager and I really feel many bite of more than they can or are prepared to manage.
It can be a real struggle and hats off to all those who commit to it all but I really don't think anyone should feel the less simply because they cannot commit to this for whatever reasons.
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