Saying 'Hello'

[tess1]

Hi everyone,

just wanted to do a quick introduction, as I have started posting, and it seemed rude not to!

I am Tess, I have seven horses (a motley collection), five dogs (also a motley - or should that be mutley - collection), two cows, nine sheep, various chickens and ducks, and a cat. We all live in varying states of multi-species harmony on a mountainside in Wales.

I am a non-competitive sort of person - just looking to learn about my horses, and other animals in my life. I am a 'clicker freak', but I appreciate that there are other methods, that work for other people - as emma&star so nicely put it - more than one way to rub a rabbit!! (....although in certain circles... but anyway, we won't go there now). For what it is worth, in the light of recent previous posts on this site, I would like to say that I am not against the use of tactful negative reinforcement during training .... (wow, this is a bit like AA)!!!

Looking forward to good discussions

Tess x

[dagbecian]

Hi Tess and welcome. Goodness and I thought we had a lot of animals.
I've been thinking for a while about using clicker training so when I've finished on here I'll be having a look at the two sites you've suggested. Probably would be a good idea to get someone out first to start me off.
Happy posting.
oh and pictures of your lot, we do like pictures.

[emmaandstar]

Hello Tess *waves*
Nice to meet someone else with quite a menagerie, I also have a horse, dogs, chickens, ducks and my infamous rabbits! And my foster family of two donkeys and a Shetland.

I hope you like it on here, I've learnt lots. ;D I also love clicker, having a mare who's obsessed with food, bit like her owner really!

[tess1]

I've been thinking for a while about using clicker training so when I've finished on here I'll be having a look at the two sites you've suggested. Probably would be a good idea to get someone out first to start me off.


Hi there – and thank you for the welcome.

Great to hear that you are considering trying out some clicker training. I don’t think you necessarily need someone to start you off – I just experimented on my own to begin with, but I would say that I did a lot of reading before I actually got the clicker out! I just checked out the Horseflix website and realise it is for American users only – shame – I thought it was UK as well – has lots of good stuff on there too!! But, if you look around the internet – the two sites I mentioned plus Karen Pryor’s website is also a centre of all things clickery (she used to be a marine mammal trainer, and is one of the pioneers of bringing this way of training out of the lab and into the real world), you should find enough information to get you started. Be warned though, this stuff can get a bit addictive!!

I think the importance of correct food delivery can’t be over-emphasised in this type of training – Alex covers it really well in her book – maybe you could ask your library to get you a copy? I also think it’s really good to put the basic manners in straight away – exercises that Alex calls ‘targetting’, ‘stand on a mat’, ‘the grown-ups are talking’, ‘happy faces’, ‘backing’ and ‘head lowering’ are really important to get a good grounding before you start some of the other stuff.

If you are up for reading around and getting things straight in your head before you start, you might feel that you can give it a go. There is also a group pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/clickryder/ which has lots of people who clicker train on there – lots of info for people getting started, and more experienced folk as well.

As for photos, well, lets be realistic here, I’ve only just figured out where the smileys are – but I have friends coming to stay in a wee while – I’ll see if I can borrow their digital camera and they can show me how to put photos on the computer.

Tess x

[tess1]

Hello Emma (waves back)

Thank you for the welcome too!!

I've followed your posts about clicker training - I really liked the photos you put on of the great job you did loading the lovely donkeys for your friend - I have to say that your friend's face in one of those photos was priceless - she looked so delighted!

I thought you did a brilliant job with them - especially when you think they had had such a bad experience previously.

Food motivation is a wonderful thing - I have been known to motivate myself with the odd bar of chocolate from time to time...! (ah, now I am in the quick reply box with no smileys - imagine a big grin here).

Tess x

[laura]

hi tess
*waves

another ct er here . but as you say negative reinforcment does have a place . we all do use it even withoug realising we do it anyway just donmt like to use the word negative . as it has negative conotations and we all our neds ( and dogs etc)

welcoms to our discussions

[tess1]

Hi Laura, and thank you for the welcome.

I think that your post has raised a very important topic – the emotional connotations that certain words have for us. I will admit that my first comment on negative reinforcement in my introduction was a little tongue-in-cheek, as a result of some previous posts I had read which seemed to be suggesting that the only ethical way to train horses was through free-shaping and the use of positive reinforcement. I do not support this view – and perhaps I should have made this clearer initially, rather than post what could potentially be taken as a rather flippant remark about negative reinforcement. My thoughts on free shaping are that it is a very valuable training tool – particularly for horses that are more experienced learners, and those that are very confident in offering behaviours, but as a method of training it can lead to a degree of stress and frustration, which may be somewhat counterproductive. And, of course, no method can be based on entirely positive reinforcement.

However, I do feel that the use of correct terminology when discussing the application of operant conditioning and learning theory to horse training is valid. I am pretty sure you already know the definitions of the following terms, but I would not wish to give the impression to anyone who may read this that I am supporting and advocating training methods that may be experienced by the horse as aversive, unpleasant, or any other kind of ‘negative’ term one may wish to use. Defining the terms may help to clarify matters:

A reinforcer is something that increases the likelihood of a behaviour occurring again.

Positive reinforcers are things that the learner will work to receive – they may be a food, a stroke or scratch, verbal praise, basically anything that is rewarding to the learner.

Negative reinforcers are things that the learner will work to avoid – this may be a very mild aversive, such as eye contact – either giving or removing it depending on species and context – very light pressure on a lead rope or rein, or placing a hand or finger against the horse to teach him to move away from pressure. As you can see – negative reinforcers do not have to be very unpleasant things – and they are vital training tools.

The term punishment can also ring alarm bells for people, so this may also be an opportune moment to explore these.

Punishers decrease the likelihood of behaviour occurring again (in theory – but reality is that positive punishment should be used, if it all, with extreme caution, in my opinion).

Two types of punishment are positive punishment and negative punishment. It may seem strange at first to think in punishment in positive terms – but in this instance the word ‘positive’ has the same meaning that it does in maths – to add (+) – so positive punishment involves introducing an aversive stimulus to the learner – a raised voice, hard yanks on the reins or lead, or smack with a whip, for example.

Negative punishers are normally used alongside of positive reinforcers, here negative also has the same meaning as in maths – to take away – so withholding the reward the learner is working for – a treat, freedom, social attention, whatever, until the desired behaviour has been produced is an example of negative punishment.

Most traditional training, pressure/release and advance/retreat involves the use of negative reinforcement – but bearing in mind that negative in this context does not have to mean that it is an extremely aversive stimuli for the animal. The danger, in my mind, is that negative reinforcement can turn into positive punishment – the line between negative reinforcement and positive punishment is fine, and it changes for different individuals, and depends on the context and the animal’s previous reinforcement history (how it has been trained, what kinds of experiences it has had, the sort of relationship it has with it’s current trainer etc). It is important to remember that what can be defined as reinforcing or punishing is the opinion of the learner – not the teacher.

Maybe an example will help. To teach my horse to back I would raise my hand and begin to move it towards my horse’s chest. I would look for the slightest weight shift or muscle twitch which suggests the horse is thinking about stepping back – the first sign I usually spot is a slight tightening in the horse’s chest muscles. When I spot that, I would immediately click, remove my hand from the horse’s space and offer a treat. I would repeat the procedure through more obvious muscle twitches, weight shifts, leg shifts etc until I got a step back. Then I would build from there to two steps back, and so on. If my horse did not want to step back to the movement of my hand, I would rest my hand on his chest, eventually he will want to get rid of that pressure – even though I would not be exerting any force – and he will experiment with behaviours to find the best way to remove that pressure. If I thought my horse might become a little pushy in an attempt to remove the pressure, and try to step into my space, I would work initially with a gate between us and put my hand through the gate. That way I avoid the risk of my negative reinforcement turning into positive punishment if I had to take steps to prevent my horse walking over the top of me. I am aware that I have taught this behaviour through the use of negative reinforcement – pressure of hand either moving into horse’s space, or resting lightly on horse’s chest; negative punishment – withholding the treat until the horse offered the desired behaviour; and positive reinforcement, in the form a food treat. And I am perfectly comfortable with my use of these methods, and I am pretty sure that learning to step back out of my space has not been an aversive experience for my horse. Therefore, in the context that I am using these terms, I do not feel that they are objectionable. Obviously, if anyone read any of my posts and felt I was advocating the use of aversive training strategies I would be happy to define and explain the terms to them.

So, I hope you will forgive me, but I will continue to use words such as ‘negative’ and ‘punishment’ in a training context. If you have a chance to look at the clicker thread which has now been moved to the dg hall of fame, you will see that the discussion there involved the use of all these terms, but because all contributors to the discussion understood the way the terms were being used, no one became anxious, or took offence. In fact, the use of these terms helped us to understand what was going on in a training session, and make some constructive suggestions. As horse trainers we are, as you have already identified, continually using these methods as ways of communicating our wishes to our horses. Many people are using these methods with little or no understanding of what they are doing and why it is working (or not, as the case may be). Rather than shying away from such terminology, I feel that it needs to be brought out into the open, to allow people to discuss their feelings about it, and clarify their thinking.

I have given a long reply to this, as I feel it is a particularly important issue, which is bound to cause some confusion and potentially strong feelings in people. However, just to reiterate – I am not condoning the use of aversive training methods, and the terms negative and positive reinforcement, and negative and positive punishment, are based in behavioural science, and in no way intended as a criticism of any approach to training and handling horses.

An excellent article can be found here: equineclicker.com – scroll down to ‘the four quadrants of operant conditioning’ – it is written by a clicker trainer, but it applies to equally well to training without the clicker.

With best wishes

Tess x

[kobbykarin]

Hi Tess, I have 2 ponies, a farm cat and a home cat and a hamster! welcome and enjoy!

karin x

[mandal]

Apr 20, 2009 18:32:06 GMT 1 tess1 said:

I will admit that my first comment on negative reinforcement in my introduction was a little tongue-in-cheek, as a result of some previous posts I had read which seemed to be suggesting that the only ethical way to train horses was through free-shaping and the use of positive reinforcement. I do not support this view –

Well Tess after reading these few words... a huge welcome from me!!!
I've recently been made to feel slighly guilty for using negative reinforcement both on this forum and at home so I am glad that there are newbies who realize it's use in training is necessary and realistic! ;D

[tess1]

Mandal,

for various reasons, I have been on a journey in the last two and a half years, which has made me question, I think, virtually everything about my relationship with my horses, my pre-conceptions, assumptions, 'knowledge', beliefs and experiences, the morals and ethics of horse training - and, indeed, whether horse training is coercive (your question from another thread). I have looked at the techniques used by marine mammal trainers (working with animals that it is virtually impossible to use negative reinforcement and positive punishment with successfully), as well as methods used by some of the most forward thinking dog trainers, and people who, for example, train giraffes to present their hooves for trimming, and lions to present their bums for the taking of blood samples!! There is no doubt, in my mind, that the most effective, and ethical, way to train any animal is by utilising a combination of positive reinforcement and negative punishment - and that philosophy governs all my interactions with my horses, dogs and other animals. However, for any animal that we have physical contact with - ie - we sit on it, or we attach it to ourselves by a headcollar and leadrope, or we attempt to communicate with it through a bridle - bitless or otherwise - I think it is absolutely impossible to influence its behaviour without the use of negative reinforcement - and, hand on heart, I feel that negative reinforcement is a necessary, realistic and clear method of indicating to the animal what behaviour is acceptable or desirable. The tactful use of negative reinforcement can either become a 'green light' to an animal that a reward (positive reinforcement) is available (if the animal produces a certain behaviour), or it can signal that release of pressure is available (if the animal produces a certain behaviour). Whether a trainer chooses to go down the route of positive reinforcement depends, I think, on a number of factors - not least of which is the animal being trained, the context, and the trainer's own mindset, beliefs and previous experiences. However, after a huge amount of soul searching (also known as paralysis by analysis according to my OH, god bless him) I have come to the conclusion that negative reinforcement is necessary, and is not wrong, in horse training. The danger with negative reinforcement is that it can quite easily become positive punishment, unless we are very careful about how we set situations up, and we are very aware of the intensity of the negative reinforcement we are using, and the reaction that our horse (or other animal) is having to it. And positive punishment has a whole other set of problems associated with it. But please do not feel guilty about using negative reinforcement. From your previous posts you have stuck me as an open minded, thoughtful and questioning sort of person, and I am sure that you show those same attributes when you handle your horses. Well-used negative reinforcement can create lightness in horses, and clarity in our interactions with them. I think that the people who have tried to make you feel guilty had more on their mind than appropriate methods of training horses!!

best wishes

Tess x

[tess1]

Lordy, I meant 'struck', not 'stuck', but I can't seem to change it now!!

T x

[tess1]

Hi there, Karin, and thank you for the welcome!

T x

[mandal]

Apr 26, 2009 0:36:19 GMT 1 tess1 said:

However, after a huge amount of soul searching (also known as paralysis by analysis according to my OH, god bless him)

Gosh your OH has diagnosed my problem!! What a great description! ;D
Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts and experiences I'm very grateful.

[tess1]

whoops!! Sorry Mandal - that was probably a tad more than you needed to know!! I'm afraid I read your post last night, after I'd had a few glasses of wine and was still feeling really 'buzzy' after a great training day - it's always bad news when my fingers hit the keyboard when I'm in that mode!!

I'm glad you liked my partner's version of homespun philosophy - I must admit the first time he said it to me, I wasn't too amused - but then I realised how right he was, I was taking life far too seriously, and sometimes we just need to stop 'what if-fing' and get on with some doing. Bless him for giving me the kick up the bum I needed!! Now, when he complains I spend too much time playing with the horses and dogs, I remind him that he was the one who told me to get out there and do it!!! Some men are great! :-)