See-Sawing

[chocolate]

I'm shocked at how may people do this

I was helping a friend at a competition and the warm up ring was full of people doing it and this was Medium dressage.......

Would they like to have a bit pull side to side in their mouths? I don't think so.

[heather]

My old trainer, Cpt Desi Lorent, used to get behind a rider and then stick his fingers in their mouth, and pull it hard from side to side and ask whether they liked it!! He would probably get arrested in this day and age, but it made his point!

It is so completely unnecessary and breaks down the muscles at the base of the neck, making the horse very 'rubbernecked' over time, and therefore far more difficult to get a correct bend from poll to tail, so as counterproductive as it is cruel.

Heather

[dingbat]

how do 'proper' riders do it? (just interested).

some people see saw much more than others - some its more subtle.

[Oranges]

It really anoys me to, the poor horses, it dosent achieve anything really, yea the horse might tuck its nose in but IMO thats not the correct outline. I actualy used to go to this riding school and they always used to tell me to do this. I dont go there anymore.
I always try to work horses from backend up through the body, and i find if the horse is going correctly, the head and neck usually comes into a nice outline without really having to do much with your hands.

[laura]

I know what you are meaning by this type of see sawing especially if done harshly ( i remember one lady who was adamant she did not do this but who a well known lady showjumper ( won hickstead twice) telling her in no uncertain terms about her hands at a show jumpng clinic !!!!


however ...... although I do know what you mean I think .... there is a place for one rein at a time communication to ask an individual leg to back up or to shorten for example rather than pulling the head in . Thats the way I would imagine "proper riders do it as dingbat says . I learnt this on a silversand clinic rather than any dressage / other method riding lesson. It is done soooooo softly steve does not want to see the hand move at all

[heather]

The art is in asking for relaxation of the lower jaw, dingbat, through refined use of the fingers on the reins. Once the jaw is relaxed, the poll relaxes followed by neck and back muscles, so that the horse can work through from behind.

The fingers merely 'squeeze the reins' as though gently squeezing water out of a sponge. Instantly the jaw relaxes, the head lowers, and the fingers very slightly uncurl, to relax the slight tension on the rein- none of this shoving the hand forward to 'give' is necessary, all it does is give the horse a jab in the mouth when the rider takes the contact back!

The rider then backs this up instantly with the leg to push the horse through from behind. If you go to my forum and have a look at the sequence of photos of my yard manager and EET Jenny's horse Beckett, over a three month period, you will see the results of this (French) method!

www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php/topic,30331.0.html

Heather

[natalia]

When warming my horse i up have him in halt and ask for flexion from one side to the other and for him to bring his head round to my leg, much like a carrot stretch but with rider on borad. You should be able to place your horses head and neck just where you want it at all times, If I take hold of mine I expect him to tuck his head right on to his chest, but to instantly release it the second I let go. This isn't cruel, its just making sure all the muscles in the next are warmed up. When working in i will ask for counter bend in walk trot and canter to the same effect, maybe this is what your riders were doing? as Heather says the trick is to let go at the precise moment, and then the horse should instantly soften.

[heather]

We also do neck flexions, but it needs to be done gradually over a period to enable the horse to stretch. One has to be careful that riders dont see this done and then just get on their horse and drag its head round, left to right, without gradual preparation, which is what so often happens!!

We do neck flexions by raising the hand, never by any backward traction on the rein, which will cause the horse to bend at the base of the neck, and not from behind the shoulder. Bending at the base of the neck, is what causes the rubber neck, and is almost impossible to correct once it has happened.

I would never bring my horse's head round from left to right and back again- 'see-sawing. In neck flexions, I would ride my horse in a straight line down the long side, but with the neck flexed round to the inside, and then, change rein and do it on the other side. This prevents any tendency to bend from the base of the neck, and really stretches from behind the shoulder, also improving the shoulder in and other lateral work!

Heather

[Amanda Seater]

Op
By see -sawing do you mean
1. sawing backwards on the riens to get the horses head to tuck? - BAD BAD ....
2. hawling the horses head from left to right using a backward tension as above - AGH BAD
3. or flexions? - If done correctly a suppling excercise

I do flexions I want my horse to follow the bit. Always use a raised hand so the action is on the corners of the mouth and not the tongue. In my ideal I would like the horse to bend into the space that I create for it so littel action on the mouth at all

[laura]

I would never bring my horse's head round from left to right and back again- 'see-sawing.

ah now I thought the OP meant see sawing as the quick and hard pulling of the bit to and fro in the horses mouth to get the horse "on the bit" .......... which is different from the gentle use of alternate reins for whatever purpose.

[dingbat]

think its confusing if you cant see what they are talking about. but yes - sounds like it.

many instuctors say 'move the bit across his tongue' which is effectively the same thing. but you can get the reaction from the movement of a finger if the horse is light enough.

Mine is western so i ride with little contact and just lift my hands to get him to drop his head (after applying leg of course). And hes very responsive. (snaffle).