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Post by fin on Jan 1, 2007 15:11:54 GMT 1
Lools like pain to me. My horse had a period of beng exactly the same--kick threats if anyone walked along his right side, very touchy about his right hip, though he'd threaten with both hind legs depending on how much you pushed your luck. And he also did the stressy nose-poking, pawing, fidgeting.
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Sutton
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Post by Sutton on Jan 1, 2007 15:30:10 GMT 1
I don;t think you can decide one way or the other unless you see how he reacts to the left hand side of him being approached, touched etc. He does kick out with his left hind once initially but after that it's all about what is happening on the right side. It could be a combination of both pain and/or learned behaviour to prevent it happening again. I think you would have to rule out pain, or the remembrance of pain before trying to sort out any spoilt behavioural problem.
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jo
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Post by jo on Jan 1, 2007 15:58:08 GMT 1
hmm, but I saw the 2nd video of her with her horse rolling...thought horses with back probs would be reluctant to roll? I just see her awful handling and the horse taking the lead.
Until you give a clear boundary to a horse where it can and can't be with a human it doesn't matter how much pain you think it's in, I would want the horse to know I am in control of where it puts it's body, teeth, head in relation to me!
Only then can you start to look at whether this horse had an issue with being brushed roughly or memories of pain etc etc.
I guess because I am not wearing a label of IH Associate, Recommended etc, my view, my opinion (for what it's worth anyway) is not worth me typing what I think?
For the record. My horse had a dreadful problem with his mouth, previous owner did not bother to look into his mouth to check and sadly the vet had cleared him when I bought him. I knowingly had a horse with an issue with a bit anywhere near his mouth. So when this was dealt with, did the problem of him barging, shoving pushing me around and all generally threatening behaviour, did it miraculously disappear because I had him operated on? Nope, I still had to learn quick about horse's *learnt* ability of taking the lead in a relationship with their handler.
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Post by eskimo on Jan 1, 2007 17:37:31 GMT 1
I have just watched the other video that Maggot is describing. The horse is rolling, horses with Back problems do still roll its a bit of a misconception that horses don't roll with back problems. Some do some don't it really depends where the problems are & how bad. That horse did seem to me to be limited. He made no attempt to roll high or roll over. He was also rolling on the other side to the one we previously witnessed him being funny with. This does suggest quite strongly to me that there are some pain issues here. But i do understand where your coming from Maggot its obvious that the horse does have bad handling issue & no respect for the owner. With this being the case how could we expect a Chiro or Physio to get near enough to inspect the horse thoroughly without being put at serious risk. But having said all this i think the owner is the major part in this horses problems as she seems to like his behavior & play along with it. Pretty disastrous situation. Also Maggot Being a IH Member or an RA has nothing to with not giving your opinion. Every one here has that right no matter what type of horsemanship back ground. I value every members contributions to this site & I'm sure others do to. I'm sorry you feel this way.
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Post by fin on Jan 1, 2007 17:45:05 GMT 1
I guess because I am not wearing a label of IH Associate, Recommended etc, my view, my opinion (for what it's worth anyway) is not worth me typing what I think?
Well, whatever label you wear or don't wear, I'm afraid people aren't always going to agree with you!
On an issue like this, then everyone is likely to comment on what their experience has been--which is of course exactly what you are doing too. ;D My experience necessarily has been different from yours. For the record though, I did have a horse with a hip problem who was quite happy to roll and buck and generally lark about, but presumably he had figured what hurt and what didn't.
Like you say--it's impossible to judge whether this is existing pain, remembrance of pain, habits got into while in pain, etc. But the horse looks to me at least that it's acting like a horse in pain--so that's the evidence I have in front of me. We'd need additional evidence, obviously, to make a judgement on the other possibilities....
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Post by gwenoakes on Jan 1, 2007 18:07:32 GMT 1
Being RA or IH has nothing to do with your opinion Maggot and I too am sorry you feel this way. If I have said anything to add to this feeling you have, then I apologise. There was never any intention from me to belittle you in any way at all. I respect all opinions whether IH/NH or whatever.
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Post by SarahW on Jan 1, 2007 18:42:21 GMT 1
I have not assumed that it is pain, I would just want to rule it out first. To work ethically you do need to make sure that the any pain is eliminated before blaming the horse. By the same token I would work with the horse first to make it safe for a practitioner to get in there!
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Post by janetgeorge on Jan 1, 2007 19:08:44 GMT 1
I have not assumed that it is pain, I would just want to rule it out first. To work ethically you do need to make sure that the any pain is eliminated before blaming the horse. By the same token I would work with the horse first to make it safe for a practitioner to get in there! I'd actually be surprised if it is pain - although that would need to be checked. It certainly could be that the horse has HAD pain in the past and learnt to be a bit of a pig as a result! But how many vets, chiropractors etc. would want to start examining a horse whose owner has taught it it can clear people out of its way?? And pain doesn't automatically turn a horse into a ratbag - unless it's pain that has been the result of abuse! I'm sure most of us have had to treat horses in real and acute pain as a result of one thing or another - most horses recognise you're trying to help then and accept it.
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miggy
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Post by miggy on Jan 1, 2007 20:24:38 GMT 1
Only watched it once but my impression was that the girl was encouraging him do these things and almost teasing him for the camera , bloomin' stupid i thought
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Post by SarahW on Jan 1, 2007 20:29:26 GMT 1
I agree completely with Janet. I would always want to make sure there was no current pain and once I was clear about that I would work on the behaviour itself. The horse will repeat behaviour that has worked for it in the past - if biting and kicking has moved people out of the way before and postponed pain then the horse needs to be shown that postponing will not work AND that there will be no new pain. Everytime someone moves out of the way when the horse bites or kicks, it reinforces the behaviour - unfortunately it is hard to overcome our (in this case perfectly reasonable) instinct to avoid pain ourselves. That's where the wonderful hand on a stick would come in. Mine doesn't mind being kicked or bitten and will stay put until the horse stops the behaviour.
I think this is a fascinating video and I would love to work with a horse like this. Hopefully the woman in the video was only illustrating how bad the horse was at that moment.
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Steff
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Post by Steff on Jan 2, 2007 18:49:27 GMT 1
some really interesting comments there guys.
i've watched it over and over again and it realy does seem as if the owner/handler is encouraging this behavour, she is buy no means trying to solve the problem thats for sure. It's such a shame to see someone who looks like they have good horse knowledge to be actually enjoying teaching their horse bad manners. Yes the horse may be in pain down his sides but he is not in pain from the front and the fact that she was letting the horses knock her around from the front is simply enforcing bad behavior IMO.
keep the comments coming folks. its realy good to hear everyones points of views
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Post by samcspottyhorses on Jan 2, 2007 23:21:40 GMT 1
IMHO-
Pain pain pain pain...... And 'Please listen, please help me out' There is tension and stress all over this poor horse's face and in his body language. He is hardly still for a moment. I believe he is entering the handler's space asking for help, he doesn't want to hurt her - he could easily have bitten a chunk out of her at any time during the video or whacked 7 bells out of her with his feet. He didn't!
Good for the handler she didn't give him a slap, I know many who would have done so, because his behaviour IS dangerous! But he is in no state to learn anything - there is PAIN! Sort that out, then there may be space to work on the other stuff, which of course desperately needs doing.
I would guess at something to do with nerves, maybe back, teeth, poll pain, headaches...something!
Thank you at this point to my old boss Mr Taylor, (RIP) who was a veterinary chiropracter and worked with many animals like this one, and many more who were much less damaged, but the signs were there, the same, but to a lesser degree. ('Mother, it hurts' is what he would say to the owners, on the horse's behalf!)
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