just wondering what you guys think?????

[Steff]

came across this on you tube and thought i'd ask for you opinion on wether you think this horse is suffering from pain or if it just has bad manners?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSK9dIADD3Y

[ally]

i think hes just bad mannered. shes barely touching him so i dont think theres any pain.

[babycham]

HE MAY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HER BEING IN HIS SPACE, JUDGING BY THE BACK WALL, HE KICKS OUT QUITE A BIT, YET ONCE SHE LEAVES HIS SPACE, HE WANTS HER ATTENTION!

[kayron]

She is very carefully teaching him to behave badly (she probaly desnt realise it!)

[MirandaSophie]

He might be anticipating pain? maybe he's uncomfortable when ridden or something.

The person who put the video up said that he's a teddy bear now...so luckily something's been sorted.

Looks to me like he wanted the attention of the lady...but ina way he saw positive.

[SarahW]

This little horse is screaming out that he is in trouble. Whenever she tries to go down his right hand side his body language says please don't go down there. He is doing everything he can to postpone something happening down that side. It could be present pain or it could be remembered pain. He gives her a lot of attention when she's at the front to keep her there.

It would be terrible if someone punished him for trying to speak his mind before they has tried to work out what on earth he was trying to tell them. If he was mine I would want him to be seen by a physiotherapist and to have his saddle checked before starting to address this behaviour. I'd then want to get him to the stage where he started to think that human touch was a pleasant thing and completely non-threatening. I'd just go uo to his shoulder at first, touch and move away and repeat over and over again until the behaviour diminished. After that I'd touch and stay with him until he stops the behaviour and then reward him by moving away. Eventually I would want to be able to give him a lovely rub all the way along that side of his body and if he didn't want to let me in to his back end, I'd use a false hand on a stick in the same way.

You can't help wondering what must have happened to this horse in the past to make him shout so loudly.

[gwenoakes]

To me it looks like remembered pain, anticipated pain or pain down that right side. His back feet are lifting up to me anyway as if saying 'Dont, I have been, will be or am in pain'. Could be wrong. If he were ours think would get a Chiro/Mctimony, have saddle, teeth, in fact everything checked first. Really dont think its just bad manners, but obviously I could be wrong from just looking at video. Do hope he is sorted now.

[jo]

This is a really clear example of a horse with NO boundaries (IMHO). If you see the video to begin he is not happy with her entering his space - for whatever reason be it pain, that's not relevant to me yet. Then when she's in it because she's ignored that warning he escalates his behaviour to kicking out...mentally he is driving her away and when that fails he tries to do it physically, blocking her with side slam body. I would hate to see how she would handle him without the cross ties. He then gets her out of his space and rather than leave it at that he then makes her move her feet by shoving his nose at her, pushing on her out of the way.
If you go to the other video of this horse, you see her allowing him to rub his face all over her and actually pushing her along after a roll! Thsi she encourages!!
How clear an example of a horse being allowed to move it's owner's feet, not allow her to groom but he instigates grooming when she turns away! Be careful what you teach I would want to say to this owner!!!

Very obvious to me the horse is simply taking the lead in their relationship. That's what some people like?

How to fix? Never allow horse into your space on his whim, keep at arms length. Move his feet every time. Be consistent in handling. Do NOT stop when touching when grooming but keep safe and reward is to stop when the earpinning stops.
I'm afraid I would not be even looking at pain until those initial boundaries were firm...this is one hell of a confused and spoilt horse.

It would be interesting to see this horse under saddle?

[sulasmum]

Very well put SarahW

[gwenoakes]

Surely Maggot you have to rule out the possibility of pain first though? If the horse is in pain you are not going to get anywhere unless this is sorted first. Clares horse Saintly was in pain and we didnt realise it. We had checked everything and I mean everything. His behaviour was terrible. We finally got another EDT out and found out that the one we had been using hadnt done her job properly, so much so that he had to be sedated before an enormous amount of work was done on his mouth. Up to getting the second EDT out his behaviour was absolutely terrible, after the second EDT came out and his mouth was sorted his behaviour was much better and since then has gone from strength to strength. What we then had to sort was the 'remembered' pain. What I am trying to say is if there is pain, even if we cant see it, you must still allow for it, otherwise IMHO you will get nowhere. I do agree quite possibly some lessons for the owner as well would possibly go a long way to helping this horse, but definitely wouldnt want it to be under saddle until all pain issues were sorted.

[touchstone]

I agree with Sarah W wholeheartedly, this horse is communicating as loudly as he can that he is uncomfortable about being touched down his side. There is always a reason for a horses behaviour and I think any pain issues must be resolved before tackling boundaries.

[calamity]

Hey you guys. Get a grip. How can you assume, never having seen the girl approach the other side that this is a pain issue? It is clear as can be that this horse has no respect for his owner, no idea what the rules are, or if there are any. In fact this horse, as This horse is dangerous and the girl involved is a fool. Ok, its a good thing you give the horse the benefit of the doubt but this is not fairyland. As Maggot points out, this horse is in charge. I would not want to see this horse ridden. This horse needs serious groundwork and expert help.

[MirandaSophie]

We're only giving our opinions calamity....none of us know what is going on, apart from what we can see...which to some people may look like pain related, to others it's just lack of respect and for some a bit of both...No-one's saying that what they have typed is EXACTLY what is going on...jus commenting on what's been observed

[gwenoakes]

I see the point you are making Calamity, but still stand by the fact that you have got to rule out pain first. I agree we havent seen the girl approach the horse from any other angle except the right side and having seen this and this alone they are my thoughts. After all when a lad first goes fishing he doesnt go with just a maggot, he first has to have the line, rod, hook and then the maggot, then he may have a chance of catching something. If physical causes are ruled out then you can begin to look deeper but not the other way round, at least not for me anyway.

[eskimo]

Agree totally with SarahW couldn't of put it better.
TBF Calamity he is acting exactly the same as a horse i had the pleasure of helping a few years ago with a very painful back and ribs, so I'm going on what i no from the behavior he is presenting, it still is only an opinion without meeting the horse none of us no.

The horse also is showing that he has never really been shown what behavior is acceptable. Therefore he enters her space willingly not knowing any different. I do wonder how this horse leads i would expect him to be bumping in to the owner. This could be remedied very easily. I do feel sorry for the horse as he will be the one who loses in this situation & will be branded dangerous & bad tempered.