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Post by rj on Nov 2, 2007 12:31:56 GMT 1
JG really IS a barefoot freak, now she can't deny it - she admits in writing for the whole world to see; she kisses frogs. Weird or what: Does that include the really smelly- thrushy ones? Yeuckkkk!!!
'BS = Barefoot Specialist' :-) Well done June!
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Azrael
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,733
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Post by Azrael on Nov 2, 2007 12:57:40 GMT 1
So do those of you that think BS = barefoot specialist really not think that things like ''Shoeing is not the necessary evil, it’s the lack of knowledge that makes shoeing a necessity that is the true evil’’ smells even a little bit of bovine poop? If you don't think shoeing is good then say it straight not try to be clever in such an utterly lame way, and it also suggests that anyone that does shoe just needs to be patted on the head as some poor unfortunate whoe doesn't know any better I don't like shoes and think barefoot is fantastic but I'm pinching my nose a little at the aroma coming off that quote
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Post by Susan on Nov 2, 2007 13:51:56 GMT 1
Oh I think there's some luck involved! There has to be a good farrier in your area before you can find him - and - as the saying goes - you may have to kiss a lot of frogs! But there are good farriers hiding within some of the 'bad' ones. When I first came to England, I took over managing quite a large commercial riding school (with a generally bad reputation!) There wasn't a horse there who was well shod! I had a chat with the farrier, put myself on his side, and discussed the different horses' problems with him, asked him what he would suggest (while making sure he knew what I expected!) He'd put up with a total lack of interest, irregular payment, and more. He had got careless and slipshod. He changed! I hear a lot of people dithering about how to tell the farrier they weren't happy - farriers TEND to be straight-talking types. I've only had one I had to sack after 'having a word' - his shoeing was fine, but he couldn't control his temper. Two I didn't bother having a word with - well ,I had TWO short words with them! ;D One I actually said two words to before he removed the 3rd shoe (he was VERY surprised - he was used to his customers being polite to him!) JG so we are expected to kiss all these dam useless frogs..or shall we call them what they truly are, useless farriers.. so we "Might" find the one who does a good job. God forbid. So do you honestly think we.. the ones who have moved over to trimmers would go "Backwards" and risk our horses extremely well cared for feet and repaired feet, to many indivduals who we have no idea about, to then sack because they are no good after of course they have done the bad deed on our horses. Then continue doing this risking ours horses welfare to prove a point, that there are lots of good ones. We know there are not. When I said there is not a farrier I would use. I meant it. When the othes have posted that, they meant it. I have sacked farriers for unreasonable behaviour of my pony, and told I would regret it! I did not. I have sacked for poor shoeing, I have sacked for unreliability, I have also "been sacked " as a client for daring to question the quality of shoeing and how damaged my horse was becoming. I know farriers have caused this mass evacuation to trimmers themselves. So they shouldnt complain at loss of business and what we chose to pay in replacement of them. They do not have the answers we sought, many owners did this because of horses lameness issues nothing traditionally taught could repair. Most was caused by them. So JG.. possibly you could listen to what it is really like for so many of us throughout the UK.. and outside UK as well. I tell you this.. is it dam easy to simply put shoes on.. and before I knew so much about footcare, Life was simplier. Ignorance is Bliss. But I can not undo the knowledge I have, and I would not want to in reality. I would be very keen to see your horses feet in question, of the well shod horse.. so when I see another I might recognise it. I would also love to see your horses well trimmed feet..
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Post by Yann on Nov 2, 2007 14:13:03 GMT 1
Yep If only it was as simple as pulling the shoes, doing the right trim and conditioning as instructed. I also think that things are sometimes made overcomplicated in the barefoot world to differentiate them and make them seem more than they actually are. The bit about trimming in more than 3 dimensions always tickles me
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Post by rj on Nov 2, 2007 14:13:35 GMT 1
I have put my view before, and will repeat again - not all farriers are useless, and it is insulting to those who are worthy of their qualifications to tarl them all with the same brush.
It is true that current farriery training does not put enough emphasis on the importance of the trim, and the fact that there should be a good reason to shoe. They have never been taught that a currectly trimmed and balance foot can perform or out perform a shod foot in certain circumstances. It's not their fault!.
I have decided to 'adopt a farrier' as he's newly qualified, and educate him about the facts pertaining to performance. But I am not going to teach him to trim, as he's demonstrated to my satisfaction that he can do that well. He knows that I know the way it should be done, and that I intend to maintain feet between trims. If he plays his cards right I will continue to praise him from the rooftops. If he gets it wrong I will broadcast that too. We need to encourage farriers to do the job properly instead of writing them all off. They work hard for their qualification. That qualification & training needs to be urgently updated & I believe Justine & the others are working hard to that end. Not all trimmers are as committed, conscientious or knowledgeable as they should be, and I would prefer that they are all answerable to the same professional body as farriers and all work to the same high standard.
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Post by joto on Nov 2, 2007 14:17:16 GMT 1
excellent post rj
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Post by rj on Nov 2, 2007 15:01:06 GMT 1
Thanks joto. I just read it back & thought it sounded a tad pompous, though!
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Post by Susan on Nov 2, 2007 15:21:32 GMT 1
rj I dont say there are no good ones, but I do not have one around me I would use or recommend..
so yes it might appear I have no time for any.. that isnt the case. in fact one of my bestest friends is not only a DAEP but also a farrier.. and if he was here in the Uk and could shoe my horse he is one of the few I would allow.. and I agree with your posting not all trimmers are great either. So it does show the need to become better educated and then we can be more responcible ourselves not have to rely on others.
But nothing stops farriers seeking and learning more ... and lets face it, if they do, they become better equipted to offer a total all round service.
But sadly for me, I did have one I thought was on my side and worked with me and my horse and was a friend and used to be a superb farrier..I thought..but still his work went downhill..
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Post by taklishim on Nov 2, 2007 17:33:30 GMT 1
Mind you, I've seen a lot of 'new' things come - and disappear again - in that time. I don't think BF will be one of the disappearing things - because it's actually not new; it's just newly fashionable again!
JG, I think BF now is very different from the past. It is certainly not new but different. In the past horses that could cope often went barefoot. Those that couldn't got shod and no-one thought much more about it. For example when youngsters got to 3/4 ie working age and started going out they would sometimes go "footy" on stones etc. Shoes would be the immediate answer. Now we know better and many of these horses can remain unshod.
Some of the horses being successfully barefooted now would never have made it in the past as the importance of diet and management was never to the fore.
Now if a BF horse is footy the trimmer does not grab the farrier's phone number to shoe it they look at other areas to find out why it is going wrong. Once these can be resolved then the horse is often sound BF.
Not all trimmers are good or all farriers bad but I have never really come across a farrier who suggested a sore horse had anything other than a foot problem that could be solved with shoes. ;D
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Post by Susan on Nov 2, 2007 17:41:24 GMT 1
sadly this is what I did
Taklishim said
For example when youngsters got to 3/4 ie working age and started going out they would sometimes go "footy" on stones etc. Shoes would be the immediate answer. Now we know better and many of these horses can remain unshod.
Through lack of knowledge, both mine and my farrier .. but you can only act with the best information you have.
If we all had hindsight would the world be a different place..
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Post by janetgeorge on Nov 2, 2007 18:45:21 GMT 1
Sorry to have a new voice weigh in on page 24 but why on earth should we all have to go round snogging amphibians to have our horses' feet properly cared for? Aagh - must have been too long - my response disappeared! What I said - in a longwinded way that I will post seperately, is that I'll have to remember that I might be taken LITERALLY on this forum! ;D Again, I agree - but this IS the real world and farriers are human (and not ALL EPs are perfect either!) In every walk of life, people have good days and bad days; they can slip into sloppy or careless methods, etc. Doesn't mean they're BAD! And they can often be pulled back onto track. The BIGGEST problem with some of the really good farriers is they get too busy - they then take on extra staff, or extra apprentices who may or may not be 'good'. They take on the responsibility of managing these people and their ongoing training - and sometimes they're not very good at it! So things start to go wrong! And of course the 'boss' farrier goes to the clients who have the most horses (or those who won't accept anyone else) and a not-so-good farrier goes to the one horse owner or the one who doesn't complain. My farrier has an apprentice who goes NOWHERE without Andrew and is allowed to do NOTHING unsupervised. Andrew is determined that will continue, even when he becomes more senior. Even with the two qualified (and very good!) farriers who work for him, one has his 'own' list - and the other works with Andrew. But it takes a lot of management skills to ensure the customers continue to be happy even when there are a number of farriers in the group - it just takes one bad one! That's true to a degree - but the real problem is there are not enough farriers being trained - so there aren't sufficient farriers to force the poor ones to up their game. If there were - say - 1,000 more farriers (good and not so good) then the not-so-good would be forced to improve or go hungry! But it's not that attractive as a career these days - every Tom, "@*£!" and Harry is whizzing off to University to get 'a degree' - often in something which doesn't qualify them for employment in the real world. Farriery is a long apprenticeship on low wages - and dirty, dangerous, back-breaking work. How many farriers are still shoeing at 50 - not many!
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Post by janetgeorge on Nov 2, 2007 19:13:37 GMT 1
So do you honestly think we.. the ones who have moved over to trimmers would go "Backwards" and risk our horses extremely well cared for feet and repaired feet, to many indivduals who we have no idea about, to then sack because they are no good after of course they have done the bad deed on our horses. Of course not - if you're happy BF, and your horses perform well BF, and you have a good EP - why change? The point I was trying to make is that there ARE good farriers out there and - if you want to keep your horses shod (for whatever reason) then it's up to you to keep looking until you find one who is either good already - or who can be 'encouraged' to do things the way you want them to. Mine doesn't - he's got as much business as he can handle! I know it is - I've done it myself (NOT in this country I hasten to add.) But I wouldn't tolerate a farrier who just put shoes on! And again, I object to the implication that because I don't fully agree with you about 'the evils of shoeing' that I am ignorant of footcare! How many would you like to see? I currently have 7 well shod horses (full set), one brood mare with front shoes only (due to an old injury to her coronary band which means one front foot has a permanent 'split' at the front), and 38 unshod mares, youngsters and foals. It might be easier for you to visit and have a look - rather than for me to try and photograph them from every angle! And I have no laminitis, no WLD, and rarely an abcess. You'll appreciate that with the number of unshod horses I have, £40 for a trim isn't really practical when my farrier does excellent trims for £15!
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Post by janetgeorge on Nov 2, 2007 19:16:48 GMT 1
JG really IS a barefoot freak, now she can't deny it - she admits in writing for the whole world to see; she kisses frogs. Weird or what: Does that include the really smelly- thrushy ones? Yeuckkkk!!! To be honest, I've never kissed an amphibian - nor an equine frog. But I do get close to and have a good sniff at the latter! ;D But talking about kissing frogs (I couldn't resist!) A frog goes into a bank and approaches the teller. Her nameplate identifies her as Patricia Whack. "Miss Whack, I'd like to get a $30,000 loan to take a holiday." Patty looks at the frog in disbelief and asks his name. The frog says his name is Kermit Jagger, his dad is Mick Jagger and that it's okay, he knows the bank manager. Patty explains that Kermit will need to secure the loan with some form of collateral. Kermit says, "Sure. I have this," and produces a tiny porcelain elephant, only an inch tall, bright pink and perfectly formed. Very confused, Patty explains that she'll have to consult with the bank manager and disappears into a back office. She finds the manager and blurts out, "There's a frog called Kermit Jagger out there who claims to know you and wants to borrow $30,000 and he wants to use *this* as collateral." She holds up the tiny pink elephant. "I mean, what in the world *is* this?" The bank manager looks back at her and says... "It's a knick-knack, Patty Whack. Give the frog a loan--his old man's a Rolling Stone."
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Post by fircones on Nov 2, 2007 19:29:17 GMT 1
???Good grief this is a long post. I would never have gone BF and knew nothing about it until keeping my very first horse with a good friend who did it with all of hers and gave me lots of information. It took me a while to find an EP but now I wouldnt change for anything. We did very little different except to build up on different surfaces at the beginning but now his feet look smashing and she is never too busy to give me or my horse time and advice. I have therefore NEVER used a farrier! Or kissed a frog come to that.
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Post by fin on Nov 2, 2007 20:59:07 GMT 1
Lol!
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