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Post by Susan on Nov 1, 2007 13:24:49 GMT 1
Lulu
dont worry it will be publised but the venue will be down to finding hosts who can offer what the course would need.
In the Uk the Trim courses are held at Junes place just outside Hitchin/Luton..
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Post by Susan on Nov 1, 2007 13:49:19 GMT 1
JG why on earth would you run a mile??
Your response reminds me of a talk I attended on laminitus given by a vet of local practice.
A number of horse owners asked wouldnt going unshod help the horse .. and what did she think to it. Well she said NO WAY would it help, and honestly she had no time for horses BF they could not cope and needed shoes and if she was asked she would not recommend it. She had 2 clients on her books and thank god it was only 2 as she would rather not have any.
Now when asked later one to one did she know anything about Barefoot and performance and how the trimming was done and had she ever attended a talk given by a BF professional. she said well actually No, I dont know anything about it really and no never been to a talk. ?? She was told well surely as a professional giving out this advice you should be better informed and then have some idea about what you are talking about. She took a back step and agreed.. she did need to learn more about it. I agree but this is not unusual.
So JG.. I see you in similar vein.. you seem to have little real experience of the professional trained trimmers and the amount of knowledge many have. Plus the facts of a metal shoe for a foot and no shoe. There are many trimmers constantly seeking continued improvement training. We never stop learning.
I can make a valued judgement unshod vs shoeing, not only my own experiences to judge by. But having learned so much more and understanding shoeing most types as well. Then understanding the foot all 7 stuctures more so and the requirement needed to perform. What the foot needs and does not need. I do not only judge by it going so badly wrong with Flynn but hinsdight when I look back at the many ponies/horses we had in our care.
In all of that time I have NEVER ever Experienced a farrier have knowledge of the foot as these guy do. I thought Cytek went that much more further which they did, but that was based on flawed informnation of the feral horse as we are now learning. That proves the need to continued seeking latest information. But at least I was then in the mode to want to know more and then learn to more not simply trust the so called expert. In that time I have seen many many farriers work ..and with all that choice knowing what I know now, not one do I want to take care of my horse..
I think it would be good for you to meet one.. and then challenge your knowledge and experiences
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Post by janetgeorge on Nov 1, 2007 14:55:16 GMT 1
JG why on earth would you run a mile?? Your response reminds me of a talk I attended on laminitus given by a vet of local practice. Of for crying out loud - what do you think ;D means! I was being facetious! I have met several EP/BF trimmers and as I have said at LEAST a dozen times, I have NO problem with BF horses OR EPs. I have more horses unshod than shod - and I have an EXCELLENT farrier who understands the importance of good trimming for ALL horses - shod or unshod. My riding horses are either my OH's hunters (and he'd no more ride an unshod horse out hunting than fly to Mars!) or horses in training for competition or for sale. I prefer them shod for a variety of reasons - and fortunately my farrier is an excellent shoer too. As I have said before - several times - I have worked with working horses who were kept barefoot - and trimmed them myself. The working conditions suited barefoot, the odd horse didn't cope and wasw shod in front. In similar circumstances I would work horses BF again! SO Susan - you're talking BS. You ASSUME a lot but know very little about me OR my horses but you choose to pass judgement. This is the one thing that p***** me off about BF - it's not BF but the holier-than-thou attitude of some of its 'disciples' who try to ram it down my throat! [/quote]
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Post by Susan on Nov 1, 2007 15:36:07 GMT 1
If I got it wrong JG then I apologise but through this thread you seemed to have put down the quality of trimmers vs farriers.. and benefits of unshod horse to the shod horse. If I read all those wrong,.,. then I am apologising. You are really lucky to be able to have such a great farrier and that has been the brunt of this not only cost of what one pays for a farrier but why was it so much more then a farrier BF trim. But the main thing that came through from the beginning was no need to have trimmers and pay these sums and also horses will not do all horses are asked unshod..I have not assumed but read the posts.. If your OH has no wish to go out on a horse unshod fine.. I also know a lady who lives near me who hunts, team chases, shows WH and at HOY..unshod.. horses for courses as they say.. I am not ramming BF or unshod down your throat but when many make assumptions it can not work for all situations and all horses and farriers are all gods.. then I will tell it how it is for me .. and I have learned some bitter lessons.. how many on here have come one and said I got it wrong! I have ..lots of times..
As we said it wasnt about the trim only.. it was the whole package we have available and it has been a god send to many..
I may well be into BF.. but I still know we are constantly learning.. and changing what we do and what I have done in the last 2 years..
like any thread.. you can stay and be part of it or choose to post or not to post..and I dont think I was rude or swore
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Post by Yann on Nov 1, 2007 18:32:49 GMT 1
So Susan - you're holier than thou, ramming your view's down JG's throat and talking BS.
No point trying to persuade someone of something when they're not interested and think they know better. Plenty of those in the horse world, thankfully not so many on this DG.
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Post by janetgeorge on Nov 1, 2007 19:32:44 GMT 1
If I got it wrong JG then I apologise but through this thread you seemed to have put down the quality of trimmers vs farriers.. and benefits of unshod horse to the shod horse. Wrong! What I HAVE emphasised is that if you have a GOOD farrier, he can do all that an EP can - and more, with the possible exception of diet advice, which personally I don't need as I've been studying diet and feeding systems for MANY years and find a high forage diet with modest 'balancing' when needed for work, growth and/or pregnancy suits all my horses very well. I don't have horses with laminitis, WLD or any of the other conditions that many others seem to battle with. It's not just luck. First you need to KNOW what you want from a farrier; then you have to be there and watch the way he shoes and handles your horses, and see how he responds to any concerns you raise. If he doesn't meet your requirements, you replace him - and I sacked two possible replacements for my previous GOOD farrier (who moved) before I found Andrew. Too many people don't know how to judge the standard of their farrier's work - they leave it to him - and by the time it goes VERY wrong, it's too late. Nowhere did I say there was no need for trimmers - merely that as I had an excellent farrier who was a good trimmer as well, I didn't need one! And I strongly believe that BF DOESN'T suit all horses/uses/owners - yes, maybe every horse could eventually go BF - but that's not quite the same thing. I don't want him to either! The United is a VERY hard country where horses' hooves are concerned - there is one Arab that can whizz up and down the Long Mynd shoeless - not many could. I never make assumptions about anything - and all farriers are definitely NOT equal - let alone gods! I'm sure it has been - and - once again - I have NO problem at all with EPs or those who use them. There is no doubt at ALL in my mind that there are not enough farriers to go around, let alone good ones! Yep - couldn't agree more. I've been learning, and modifying (or changing) the way in which I do things for more than 45 years. Mind you, I've seen a lot of 'new' things come - and disappear again - in that time. I don't think BF will be one of the disappearing things - because it's actually not new; it's just newly fashionable again!
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Post by janetgeorge on Nov 1, 2007 19:41:36 GMT 1
So Susan - you're holier than thou, ramming your view's down JG's throat and talking BS. No point trying to persuade someone of something when they're not interested and think they know better. Plenty of those in the horse world, thankfully not so many on this DG. Now you're talking BS. If I wasn't 'interested' in the debate, I wouldn't be wasting my time on it. And I don't think I know 'better' - however I do know rather more about what I do know, and what I have done, than anyone else here - so you'll have to forgive me if I get irritated by people who make assumptions that aren't correct. ;D I am delighted that EPs have managed to help so many owners and horses, who have not had such happy experiences with good farriers as I have. And I am VERY sure that a goodEP and BF - is FAR better than a bad farrier putting shoes on a horse. I also think EPs offer a very useful service if they can give good advice on nutrition and keeping horses fit to those who need it.
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Post by fin on Nov 1, 2007 20:08:44 GMT 1
I am delighted that EPs have managed to help so many owners and horses, who have not had such happy experiences with good farriers as I have. And I am VERY sure that a goodEP and BF - is FAR better than a bad farrier putting shoes on a horse. I also think EPs offer a very useful service if they can give good advice on nutrition and keeping horses fit to those who need it. Oh yes. Mine has absolutely saved us, and my horse. I'm pretty sure that Out There in the Civilised World (ie not my bit of Wales ) there are probably plenty of farriers and other BF trimmers who have done the same for other folks. Wasn't it Pete Ramey--who still calls himself a farrier even though he hasn't shod a horse in years--who said that he looked back at his years shoeing and sorting out laminitics and awkward cases, and he was STILL proud of the fact he made a difference, even though the technologies he now chooses to work with are different? I like Pete Ramey
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Nov 1, 2007 21:10:26 GMT 1
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Post by fin on Nov 1, 2007 22:18:33 GMT 1
Lol! Poor cats--if they're going to go round trying to save threads on this board, they'd better believe in miracles....
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Nov 1, 2007 22:32:53 GMT 1
Hehehe hehehe, the business project has driven me mad! Yes, loopier than I was before. Although... despite my insanity... this thread has proved useful RE research:) Do you know anywhere else I can hoover up some more laminitis info? I'm going to try and wangle some research on it this year if I can get a placement with the group at the RVC.
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Post by fin on Nov 1, 2007 22:53:35 GMT 1
Ah, but I have a 500kg QH who can do 0-50 in less than five seconds...and he doesn't like cats. So as cats go, you'd better either go quickly.......or learn how to operate a rifle! Laminitis? Yes. Lots. ALthough beware what you read pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/is one of the most useful on IR/Cushings related laminitis. There's a good overview of LGL here: www.unshod.co.uk under Articles.
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Post by june on Nov 1, 2007 22:56:18 GMT 1
This is a good thread and doesn't deserve to be deleted so please everyone, calm down. It just shows the limitations of the written word where we can't see people's facial expressions, tone of voice etc. The smileys help but don't quite get the message across!
Having read Janetgeorge's posts she comes across as being quite rational about BF. It suits some and not others. And quite rational about farriers. There are good ones and bad ones. I doubt many people could argue about that. BF is not an easy option. It requires a lot of effort from the owner and many people don't have the time, facilities or even the inclination to take that route. Horses are expensive to keep and we generally keep them to ride, not to hand walk in pads etc! That doesn't make shod horse owners bad people or BF horse owners good people. It is just a choice that the owner makes. Many, many horses live long and happy lives wearing shoes.
JG, take Susan's apology in the spirit in which it is intended. If you've ever seen the photos of Flynn's feet you'll know that she was let down badly by a farrier who she trusted and was a friend.
I think JG is luckier than she thinks she is in finding a good farrier who does a good BF trim. Having said that, we've had good farriers before who did good BF trims. Our last farrier did a good BF trim for a while and then suddenly starting making the horses sore. Not really sure why and even though I thought I was being direct enough in telling him "that horse was sore last time so please be gentle", the message didn't get across and I ended up switching to EPs and with an offended farrier. I've been able to work with the EPs when things weren't going as well as they should have been and we can have rational discussions and try different things which has been a huge benefit to the horses. I haven't found that many farriers are as approachable.
In reality I suspect it isn't that EPs are expensive, it is good farriers doing trims that are too cheap!
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Post by sarahfox on Nov 2, 2007 0:32:03 GMT 1
very funny chitori!!!LMAO!!!
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Post by Susan on Nov 2, 2007 0:32:46 GMT 1
This is so true and the whole point we tried to get across..
June said
In reality I suspect it isn't that EPs are expensive, it is good farriers doing trims that are too cheap!
Farriers have to learn!!!!!!! and I do mean that for their best interests. if they do give the service all round they need to rethink their costs and not undervalue themselves.
JG.. June knows me very well.. thank you June for very kind words.(Blush)
This is an interesting thread.. and we have got many more to become interested in their horses feet and foot care. lets not lose them through nasties...
JG I wish I could get through to you the difficulties of a gaining a good farrier..
Quote: You are really lucky to be able to have such a great farrier
It's not just luck. First you need to KNOW what you want from a farrier; then you have to be there and watch the way he shoes and handles your horses, and see how he responds to any concerns you raise. If he doesn't meet your requirements, you replace him - and I sacked two possible replacements for my previous GOOD farrier (who moved) before I found Andrew. Too many people don't know how to judge the standard of their farrier's work - they leave it to him - and by the time it goes VERY wrong, it's too late.
you do not think it is luck...
well I wish..
In my area I dread to think how many farriers I would be looking at to say No thanks to, including the main two that many local vets say are the best! Replace with who?? this isn't an argument but a reality check..this is real world..honest.. I do not live in the wilds of beyond either.
but am I lucky as I have the the most fantastic choice of KC trimmers.. it is unreal.. plus personally a better choice and folks around then most have.
I can only say out of the rubbish I went through.. I have been lucky to come out the other side.. again learning
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