Dressage today, different judges

[sunnylynn11]

I took Zico to a local dressage show today, we had a fantastic time but how comes many judges are so more lenient than others??, We went to a competition just over a week ago & I got 55%, even though I broke the canter (ie went back to trot at one point), last weeks test was pretty awful, not a great free walk & I know that I could have done a lot better, anyway, today was the best that Zico's ever been, pretty good canter (much better than last time) and I just felt so much more controlled & our trot had definately improved, today I got 51%. My two freinds came with me to both shows & they said that todays test was so much better.
To be honest, i'm not at all bothered what score I get, I just go for fun, which I always have, but isnt it funny how you get one score from one judge & another score from another.
Anyway, the most fantastic thing about the last two weeks shows is that Zico loaded really well, i'm so happy, we've finally cracked it ;D, Zico even travels much better & is not hot & sweaty when travelling like he used to be. I'm so proud of him & seriously thinking about a beach ride next week to let him have some fun x

[jennyb]

Yep, tis very annoying! But you tend to find that if a judge marks on the harsh side, she/he will mark the rest of the class the same, so the placings normally work out fair - most of the time anyway! Well done with the loading!

[MirandaSophie]

that's partly why i dnt do dressage....even if you haev the best horse, if the judge doesn't like the breed of horse or favours other people then you dnt stand a chance, at elast with sjing, if you have a pole down you haev a pole down etc.

Well thone though!

Beach ride would be super too!

[eskimo]

Hi, Im glad your not bothered by your score the main thing is you went and took part and enjoyed it. Was the dressage unaffiliated? No matter if there unaff or affiliated they should never judge on Breed, type or if they no someone. I do agree with Jennyb if the judge is fairly harsh then they stay like that. I'm affiliated and out most weeks i will say though that the judging is far more consistent and i only ever get marked down for a reason. Although I'm venturing to an unaffiliated show on Sunday the good thing is they have the classes set out well so if your horse has BD points you cant enter certain classes which i think is good and fair.

I do hope this hasn't put you off dressage!! And well done to Zico for loading and traveling so well.

[greenfairy]

mirandasophie said:

that's partly why i dnt do dressage....even if you haev the best horse, if the judge doesn't like the breed of horse or favours other people then you dnt stand a chance, at elast with sjing, if you have a pole down you haev a pole down etc.

Well thone though!

Beach ride would be super too!

I don't really think that's the case for dressage. It's judged on the 'technicalities' of what's being done, not what the horse looks like ( as in breed, colour etc).

[zoeshiloh]

I have to agree with MirandaSophie I'm afraid. Having competed at riding club, unaffiliated and affiliated dressage it is often (not always) the same story - those horses that the judges like the look of get the places. I took Ben out recently and he came third with 66%, but there were tonnes of horses better than him - it came down to the fact that because he held his head in the right place and looked pretty, the judges were not looking at the fact he was falling out and actually cantering on three tracks. I love dressage and I love competing at dressage, but I do think that it is tough to break into as an unknown unless you have a really stunning horse. Even Mark Todd says in his autobiography - it wasn't until judges started realising who he was that his dressage marks were dropping by about 20 points!

[eskimo]

I'm sorry but i don't agree with what you have said Zoeshiloh. As i have said above i compete at dressage on a very regular basis competing twice this week. Sometimes more often than not at venues i have never been to before with judges i have never been in front of. I have never received a mark that i deemed to be unfair yet.

But what did sometimes used to happen at unaffiliated shows was they would get some of the BHSAI's or above to judge not a trained judge. This is happening less and less i haven't come across this for a few years now.

Zoe you got 66% what you failed to see is that the other horses may of been better than yours but there test obviously wasn't which is what it all comes down to not how good they where working in. Dressage is a growing sport and more and more people take it seriously so why would they be using judges that where not up to the job.

[jennyb]

Agree with eskimo, if you choose a venue which uses listed judges for unaffil, you will get fairer marks and scores. I have stopped doing dressage at riding clubs etc because some of the judging there has been shocking! It's much better when you have listed judges, they won't give a good score because of a pretty head position. My horse goes nicely on the bit, but because of an old injury he finds it really hard to work through from behind properly and to relax over his back - the judges where I go nearly always spot it and comment on it, as they are nearly always listed judges.

[annahindley]

I am part way between the two extremes of this argument. I remember doing the same test in front of the same judge on 3 horses. The first was my rather rough cob. He was by far the best schooled and most obedient of the three, but his natural ability and paces were poor - he simply was never going to float in trot. He went well, but without any wow. The next was a nice TB mare I rode for another owner - she was reasonably well schooled and had much better natural athletism. She was place above my cob. The third mount was a show hack with very very flashy movement. She was young and green, she shied at the boards and broke canter. She was placed in the middle of the three, when to my mind she should've been last.
I can see the judges point to an extent - it is hard to judge if a horse moves well because of training or ability, especially when you are watching from one angle. I did feel my solid cob had been a bit cheated though!
Of course, this is just one judge and at a low level! When you watch footage of even top level competitions, the judges make mistakes - but with the wisdom of hindsight and freeze-framing it is alot easier to see than the split second a judge gets to decide. Also, you are rarely objective about your own test - in the above example, I loved my cob best, so I felt it more for him than the others! Like any opinion, you have to accept it and move on.

[zoeshiloh]

I compete 2 or 3 times a week at dressage, and if I thought it was really that unfair I wouldn't. Like I say there are exceptions to everything - I have been at shows before now where I know that I shouldn't have won/been placed, but I have. Also the reverse - last week I went to another riding club dressage where I thought Ben did exceptionally well to find we were almost last, no surprise that the committee members of that club were placed 1-6 in both classes! And I wasn't the only one to comment!

I have started doing judge training (I do a lot of writing and am trying to become a listed judge) so when I sit with judges it is sometimes funny to hear "I know this horse, she has done so well with it its improved so much" but then they give it a high mark based on improvement rather than how the horse is actually going (which shouldn't be done - what if the judge had no idea who the horse/rider was).

I love dressage, but yes, some competitions can leave you a little downhearted. My friend videos me competing, and videos other tests for me to compare with, so I know roughly how well the class was judged.

There is a lot less controversy in jumping, as you say a pole down is a pole down, no contest!

[amelia]

I don't compete in dressage (well apart from the very occasional unaffiliated) but I often go with the YO when she takes her boy out. She's currently competing him at elimentary, he's a big IDx who is lovely and correct with great presence but obviously isn't as flashy as a warmblood. I totally agree with Zoe and Miranda, some judges love him and some look down their noses. He is very consistant but one week he'll do a test and get wonderful comments and the next he'll do an even better test and they'll mark him dreadfully and yet some warmblood will go in, be completely inaccurate, maybe do a couple of bucks for good measure but because it's flashy it'll get marked higher. The worst is Oldencraig for judging, if you haven't got a warmblood there's little point in turning up - that's if they haven't cancelled the event last minute anyway :-)

[eskimo]

Well all i can say is i must be competing at very good venues. Last week i had a coloured heavyweight cob in one class and a ID from the Embla line in the other. I have a WB but he doesn't have flashy false moves we had a bad day as he thought there was a monster a the letter E we came 2nd to last with 61.99%. The cob won and the ID won the other class. People seem very quick to jump on the warmbloods in dressage wondering why?
As i have an ID as well and a TB the ID who's 17.1hh was competing Elementary i never had a problem people and judges seemed to love him. We competed against WB's all the time He was retired last year.

Ive never competed at Oldencraig so wouldnt be able to comment on the judging. But if affiliated you can take it further if you feel it is bad and they are favoring certain breeds.

Ive never competed riding club but i don't think i will now if thats the standard. I had just been asked to join my local club.

[amelia]

Yep she's already taking it further :-) Not slating warmbloods as i love them just saying that it's a shame all judges can't judge a horse on what it does rather than what it looks like

[natalia]

Got to add my bit to this debate. I am fortunate enough to have 2 affill centres within hacking distance, they both run affill and unaff comps side by side, so the afil days have unaff classes with the smae standard of judging. You can also compete in the affil classes but don't need a ticket, you just don't get the points and are entered in to the unaff league, this all sounds confusing but it isn't and lets you compete at aff level with out paying out the money or winning the points but not having to worry about tickets to ride ect. as you are entering in to an unaff points jackpot on all levels. I can compete my horse up to prix st george unaff by going to these events, therefore its a very popular comp with proffesional riders who have to compete HC. Lots of eventers use these comps over the winter as they also run BE tests in prep for the coming season. By going to these centres I can guarentee that it will be judged fairly and with listed judges. I have a 14.2hh whom I compete with, and we reg beat the larger warmbloods. I have noticed that more and more people are moving away from big flashy horses and dressage ponies are getting more and more popular. There was an article recently in BD mag about judges asking for more training days that included pony sections, as it is true that judging cobs and ponies is different than larger sports horses. I have had to manufacture my boys extended paces, as its not natural to him, however he find lateral work very very easy.
I often go out competing with my friend who has a KWPN gelding, he is a big flashy horse, although wasn't very expensive as she imported him as a baby. We went to another unaff comp earlier this year which she won although her horse won't do a four time walk and spooked around. My pony did a nicer test and got the worst score we have ever got on 52%. Even though we have the same trainer and she was watching and said my test was better. So, it is often down to the jude and a predisposition that warmbloods are always better than other horses. At our mixed unaff/aff centre I have always beaten my friends scores and these are with a variety of listed judges. Soooooo, I personally think that scores are down often to judges ideas on what makes a nice horse, rather than the qaulity of a test, therefore if you don't have a flashy big moving horse you need to find out before you go if your going to a test with proper listed judges. Personally I would rather not go to compete without, as the scores don't really reflect your test or level your working at, and it often makes you feel quite low!
I must also say that one of the centres I reg go to is actively promoting british pure bred horses and runs a championship comp for all horses who get over 60% and produce british bred breed papers.