Post by Admin on Aug 4, 2005 15:39:16 GMT 1
Subject : Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : regular
Date : 01.08.03 11:10:00 AM
I know this has been done before but i was wondering if anyone can give me any info as to the benefits of horses with navicular going barefoot.
Can the horse resume normal work barefoot-i.e.roadwork,hacking,schooling and competing?
How much is it to have them trimmed and how often do you have to have them done?
any other info??
Also can anyone give me contact details for farriers in this line in and around Berkshire.
thanks
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Kim (with Rio)
Date : 01.08.03 11:41:00 AM
Think this has been answered for you on another post.....
However, I do know that certainly for shod horses with Navicular, the feet have to be trimmed regularly (every 4/5 weeks) so that the toe does not grow too long and so helps reduce tripping.
Kim
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : regular
Date : 01.08.03 11:45:00 AM
thanks Kim-just caught up with the other post
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : pat
Date : 01.08.03 11:55:00 AM
I have replied to your other thread but to get more information on barefoot do some background reading on www.barefoothorse.com
it will take a while to get through it all but will provide a lot of answers for you and will give you some idea as to the current state of your feet trimming.
The best person to trim for you would be Charlie as Helen has already said.
Whatever the cost is it will be less than shoes. In the end if you carry on as you are at present then there will be the chance that his condition will deteriorate and he will simply be unridable or worse.
To start with you will probably be trimming monthly for the first 3 months or so (this is just a guess as I haven't seen your feet) and then probably 6 weekly.
Can your horse be ridden etc, yes that is the general idea.
No one is saying that the barefoot option works for every navic horse but it is certainly worthy of serious consideration.
Have you considered getting advice from Nick Thompson MRCVS?
this is a vet who believes in the barefoot option and may be able to help you.
If barefoot was your decision then once the shoes were removed it would be important to make sure the horse was trimmed correctly from the start (this saves a lot of time) and it may be better to give him a month at grass to let him adjust. After that it would be the normal conditioning work required to get a horse barefoot, ie short periods on smooth tarmac, keeping to grass, schooling areas etc and gradually doing more and more to condition his feet over about 9 months.
If you are new to the barefoot idea and want to see what is involved why not contact Charlie and ask her to put you in touch with some other barefooters in your area then you could see their horses and discuss what is involved.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : for pat
Date : 01.08.03 11:58:00 AM
That helps a lot-I have got Charlies number and I will give her a call.
Thanks Again
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Carol in wilts
Date : 01.08.03 12:36:00 AM
There have been lots of successes treating navicular with a barefoot approach. especially if the trim emphasises correct breakover and heel first landing, with good support to the back of the foot.
I have (somewhere!) a great article by Prof. Bob Bowker at Univ. of Michigan called "navicular is a man-made disease"- can't immediatley find it (must be on old computer) but there is a sort of summary on cvm.msu.edu/news/Press/navicular.htm
also check out home.jockeyclub.com/may_03.pdf
(PDF file) on bowker's trim guidelines - see last paras....
and www.ladyfarrier.com/content_pages/2002/summer/barefoot_persuasion.html
I recommend charlie as well..
carol
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Gill
Date : 01.08.03 1:37:00 PM
Please keep posting with your progress. I am now following the same line for laminitis recovery.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Sal
Date : 01.08.03 3:15:00 PM
I wanted to try barefoot for Alex,(he also has navic) but it is impossible. he is so lame without shoes that he is practically unable to walk.
He cannot even go barefoot when the farrier is taking his shoes off. He has to have the done one at a time so that he always has a shod foot to stand on.
when he loses a shoe, I have to put a poultice boot on until the farrier can come out.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Pat to Sal
Date : 01.08.03 6:03:00 PM
I had a horse exactly like this, soreness wise (he did not have navicular)
The rest of my horses were barefoot but I kept his shoes on, he was 16, as I knew he would find it very difficult without them. In the end his feet just cracked off so much below the nail holes that I had no choice as the farrier had nothing to nail to.
Like your horse he could hardly stand on his unshod foot whilst trimming the opposite one.
It took 51 weeks before we trotted on gravel (his choice!)
It takes about 2/3 months for this sort of horse to adapt to simply living in a field without shoes.
To start with he could hardly move and I carpeted the stable yard so he could get about. Rubber matting would work well. Gradually he sorted himself out and after about 2.5 months I started road walking with old macs for the stones and the boots off for a few minutes on smooth tarmac.
It sounds from your description that if your horse is so sore without shoes then his feet may not be in the best of shape. My horses feet were appaling and extremely contracted. After 2 years of barefoot they are considerably improved.
I think that a lot would depend on the age of the horse etc but what I am really trying to say is don't just write off barefoot as a means of rehab for your horse. It would be possible, it would just take more time and careful planning.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Gill
Date : 01.08.03 6:06:00 PM
My daughter had a pony with no feet left to nail into. There was no choice but to barefoot. After 6-9 months of careful work, combined with Marquis boots, he had good hard feet. Worth a try.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Sal
Date : 01.08.03 7:48:00 PM
Pat
I can't put him through it. he has been xrayed and his soles are exceptionally thin. he gets infections often when not shod as his soles puncture so easily. I realy think it would be cruel. he actually sweats and groans it is so painful for him. Don't think it would be fair.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Elizabeth
Date : 01.08.03 8:16:00 PM
My horse has navic and sounds similars to Sal's in that he just cannot go with out his shoes - the farrier also has to do them one by one.
I suppose it depends on the severity of the diseased bone - Mine had x-rays done in March, and his navic bone in his left foot has gone hollow from the inside out (if that makes sense), so is really really week. If he went barefoot, he would have no support at all for the heel area, and I just don;t think it woudl be fair on him at all. Like I say, they are all different, but I certainly wouldn;t try barefoot with mine knowing whats goign on inside the foot (as per the xrays).
Have you got this weeks Horse & Hound? There's an ainteresting article in there about plastic shows that are nail-less and are bonded to the hoof. They're designed for laminitis, but have frog & heel supports, so certainly look like something that may help a navic sufferer???
Like I say, I'm only saying that barefoot wouldn;t work in my lads case, and am in no way condoning it's merits, but it's certainly a long hard decision and something that your vet & farrier will help with.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Andrea
Date : 01.08.03 8:45:00 PM
I have a horse diagnosed with navicular, we took her barefoot 2 years ago, she is WB, she had contracted feet with thick soles, she works well without shoes, I do boot her in front some times as we ride on very stony ground.
I also had a TB cross, we had him barefoot for 2 years, in light work, his back feet got sore. So we shod him.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Sal
Date : 01.08.03 10:06:00 PM
Elizabeth
Glad to hear I'm not alone, although I wouldn't wish it on anybody!
I did see the plastic shoes- I wonder if they would stay on? Alex manages about 3 weeks tops in his before he manages to ull them off. He's in natural balance and the new natural balance pads with heel wedges. It took him a good few weeks to get used to them.. things were looking hopeful.... now he's pulled them off again, so w're back to square one....
Were they called Easywalkers, the plastic ones?
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Elizabeth
Date : 01.08.03 10:45:00 PM
Hi Sal
There were two reports in the same issue on non-normal shows, but the one I was looking at was called the Imprint show on Page 13. They are meant to minimise trauma, provide a non invasive perfect fit as well as maximise support without compromising the natural foot functions (all copied from H&H of course!!) They are meant to last 4 weeks initially, after which point they can be refitted.
I have two farriers - one for the one for navic who at present is shoeing him in egg bars, although his aim is to switch to natural balance. The other farrier I have (he shoes/trims my natives with 'normal' feet) has mentioend in the past that he does 'do' a horse with plastic shoes, so I wonder if these are the Imprint or the Easywalker - think I'll ask him when he returns in about 3 weeks time.
Anyway, I can sympathise - My horse is in a real mess if he loses a shoe - we can't find a hoof boot to fit him as although he's a thoroughbred, he has weeny hooves, so we just have to stable him on tons of shavings till the farrier arrives. Luckily, his farrier is part of a big family who are all farriers, so if I can't get hold of hos normal farrier, at least one of the brothers will refit an eggbar as an emergency. Horses, who'd have 'em?!
From : regular
Date : 01.08.03 11:10:00 AM
I know this has been done before but i was wondering if anyone can give me any info as to the benefits of horses with navicular going barefoot.
Can the horse resume normal work barefoot-i.e.roadwork,hacking,schooling and competing?
How much is it to have them trimmed and how often do you have to have them done?
any other info??
Also can anyone give me contact details for farriers in this line in and around Berkshire.
thanks
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Kim (with Rio)
Date : 01.08.03 11:41:00 AM
Think this has been answered for you on another post.....
However, I do know that certainly for shod horses with Navicular, the feet have to be trimmed regularly (every 4/5 weeks) so that the toe does not grow too long and so helps reduce tripping.
Kim
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : regular
Date : 01.08.03 11:45:00 AM
thanks Kim-just caught up with the other post
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : pat
Date : 01.08.03 11:55:00 AM
I have replied to your other thread but to get more information on barefoot do some background reading on www.barefoothorse.com
it will take a while to get through it all but will provide a lot of answers for you and will give you some idea as to the current state of your feet trimming.
The best person to trim for you would be Charlie as Helen has already said.
Whatever the cost is it will be less than shoes. In the end if you carry on as you are at present then there will be the chance that his condition will deteriorate and he will simply be unridable or worse.
To start with you will probably be trimming monthly for the first 3 months or so (this is just a guess as I haven't seen your feet) and then probably 6 weekly.
Can your horse be ridden etc, yes that is the general idea.
No one is saying that the barefoot option works for every navic horse but it is certainly worthy of serious consideration.
Have you considered getting advice from Nick Thompson MRCVS?
this is a vet who believes in the barefoot option and may be able to help you.
If barefoot was your decision then once the shoes were removed it would be important to make sure the horse was trimmed correctly from the start (this saves a lot of time) and it may be better to give him a month at grass to let him adjust. After that it would be the normal conditioning work required to get a horse barefoot, ie short periods on smooth tarmac, keeping to grass, schooling areas etc and gradually doing more and more to condition his feet over about 9 months.
If you are new to the barefoot idea and want to see what is involved why not contact Charlie and ask her to put you in touch with some other barefooters in your area then you could see their horses and discuss what is involved.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : for pat
Date : 01.08.03 11:58:00 AM
That helps a lot-I have got Charlies number and I will give her a call.
Thanks Again
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Carol in wilts
Date : 01.08.03 12:36:00 AM
There have been lots of successes treating navicular with a barefoot approach. especially if the trim emphasises correct breakover and heel first landing, with good support to the back of the foot.
I have (somewhere!) a great article by Prof. Bob Bowker at Univ. of Michigan called "navicular is a man-made disease"- can't immediatley find it (must be on old computer) but there is a sort of summary on cvm.msu.edu/news/Press/navicular.htm
also check out home.jockeyclub.com/may_03.pdf
(PDF file) on bowker's trim guidelines - see last paras....
and www.ladyfarrier.com/content_pages/2002/summer/barefoot_persuasion.html
I recommend charlie as well..
carol
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Gill
Date : 01.08.03 1:37:00 PM
Please keep posting with your progress. I am now following the same line for laminitis recovery.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Sal
Date : 01.08.03 3:15:00 PM
I wanted to try barefoot for Alex,(he also has navic) but it is impossible. he is so lame without shoes that he is practically unable to walk.
He cannot even go barefoot when the farrier is taking his shoes off. He has to have the done one at a time so that he always has a shod foot to stand on.
when he loses a shoe, I have to put a poultice boot on until the farrier can come out.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Pat to Sal
Date : 01.08.03 6:03:00 PM
I had a horse exactly like this, soreness wise (he did not have navicular)
The rest of my horses were barefoot but I kept his shoes on, he was 16, as I knew he would find it very difficult without them. In the end his feet just cracked off so much below the nail holes that I had no choice as the farrier had nothing to nail to.
Like your horse he could hardly stand on his unshod foot whilst trimming the opposite one.
It took 51 weeks before we trotted on gravel (his choice!)
It takes about 2/3 months for this sort of horse to adapt to simply living in a field without shoes.
To start with he could hardly move and I carpeted the stable yard so he could get about. Rubber matting would work well. Gradually he sorted himself out and after about 2.5 months I started road walking with old macs for the stones and the boots off for a few minutes on smooth tarmac.
It sounds from your description that if your horse is so sore without shoes then his feet may not be in the best of shape. My horses feet were appaling and extremely contracted. After 2 years of barefoot they are considerably improved.
I think that a lot would depend on the age of the horse etc but what I am really trying to say is don't just write off barefoot as a means of rehab for your horse. It would be possible, it would just take more time and careful planning.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Gill
Date : 01.08.03 6:06:00 PM
My daughter had a pony with no feet left to nail into. There was no choice but to barefoot. After 6-9 months of careful work, combined with Marquis boots, he had good hard feet. Worth a try.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Sal
Date : 01.08.03 7:48:00 PM
Pat
I can't put him through it. he has been xrayed and his soles are exceptionally thin. he gets infections often when not shod as his soles puncture so easily. I realy think it would be cruel. he actually sweats and groans it is so painful for him. Don't think it would be fair.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Elizabeth
Date : 01.08.03 8:16:00 PM
My horse has navic and sounds similars to Sal's in that he just cannot go with out his shoes - the farrier also has to do them one by one.
I suppose it depends on the severity of the diseased bone - Mine had x-rays done in March, and his navic bone in his left foot has gone hollow from the inside out (if that makes sense), so is really really week. If he went barefoot, he would have no support at all for the heel area, and I just don;t think it woudl be fair on him at all. Like I say, they are all different, but I certainly wouldn;t try barefoot with mine knowing whats goign on inside the foot (as per the xrays).
Have you got this weeks Horse & Hound? There's an ainteresting article in there about plastic shows that are nail-less and are bonded to the hoof. They're designed for laminitis, but have frog & heel supports, so certainly look like something that may help a navic sufferer???
Like I say, I'm only saying that barefoot wouldn;t work in my lads case, and am in no way condoning it's merits, but it's certainly a long hard decision and something that your vet & farrier will help with.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Andrea
Date : 01.08.03 8:45:00 PM
I have a horse diagnosed with navicular, we took her barefoot 2 years ago, she is WB, she had contracted feet with thick soles, she works well without shoes, I do boot her in front some times as we ride on very stony ground.
I also had a TB cross, we had him barefoot for 2 years, in light work, his back feet got sore. So we shod him.
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Sal
Date : 01.08.03 10:06:00 PM
Elizabeth
Glad to hear I'm not alone, although I wouldn't wish it on anybody!
I did see the plastic shoes- I wonder if they would stay on? Alex manages about 3 weeks tops in his before he manages to ull them off. He's in natural balance and the new natural balance pads with heel wedges. It took him a good few weeks to get used to them.. things were looking hopeful.... now he's pulled them off again, so w're back to square one....
Were they called Easywalkers, the plastic ones?
Subject : re:- Navicular and barefoot and farriers questions
From : Elizabeth
Date : 01.08.03 10:45:00 PM
Hi Sal
There were two reports in the same issue on non-normal shows, but the one I was looking at was called the Imprint show on Page 13. They are meant to minimise trauma, provide a non invasive perfect fit as well as maximise support without compromising the natural foot functions (all copied from H&H of course!!) They are meant to last 4 weeks initially, after which point they can be refitted.
I have two farriers - one for the one for navic who at present is shoeing him in egg bars, although his aim is to switch to natural balance. The other farrier I have (he shoes/trims my natives with 'normal' feet) has mentioend in the past that he does 'do' a horse with plastic shoes, so I wonder if these are the Imprint or the Easywalker - think I'll ask him when he returns in about 3 weeks time.
Anyway, I can sympathise - My horse is in a real mess if he loses a shoe - we can't find a hoof boot to fit him as although he's a thoroughbred, he has weeny hooves, so we just have to stable him on tons of shavings till the farrier arrives. Luckily, his farrier is part of a big family who are all farriers, so if I can't get hold of hos normal farrier, at least one of the brothers will refit an eggbar as an emergency. Horses, who'd have 'em?!