Post by Admin on Aug 4, 2005 15:40:15 GMT 1
Subject : Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Judith
Date : 26.01.04 11:02:00 PM
In the current issue of Horse and Hound there is an article about MRI scanning of horses and so far, with only a small number of these machines available and with a fairly low number of horse patients they have discovered that 70% of cases previously diagnosed as navicular were not, they were soft tissue injuries.
This is not necessarily good news for the horse, because the injury might be very severe, but the treatment is exactly the opposite. A horse with navicular would continue in work, whereas one with a soft tissue injury would need rest to give a chance to heal.
What next?
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : shep
Date : 27.01.04 8:00:00 AM
It's a really good point Judith, and makes me think it's certainly best to have a horse 'correctly' diagnosed before beginning a course of therapy; however, if a horse is lame (whatever the reason) I would not work him.... excersize maybe, but not work.
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : shelley w/holly
Date : 27.01.04 8:11:00 AM
I remember when my vet diagnosed our chestnut mare with navicular he said something I'll never forget:
'there was a survey done with 100 vets and lamish horses, each horse was x-rayed and 90 out of that 100 was diagnosed with navicular on the results of x-rays and nerve blocking. Now only 5 out of that 100 horses actually had navicular or any sign of lameness at all'.
My vet said that the x-rays showing navicular bone wear was the result of normal wear due to jumping etc and couldn't really be used to diagnose navicular. My mare has since been un-diagnosed with navicular. She has a definate bone growth around her near fetlock and we've since heard about her awful accident involving a 3' jump, a 9' drop into a stoney river bed. She still limps and I don't think we'll ever ride her but the vet says she doesn't seem to be in pain but it's an old injury and she'll probably always limp. Funnily enough she only limps in walk and trot, when she canters and gallops in the field with her friends she's as flowing as the wind, wonderful to see and the vet says she wouldn't do that if it hurt!
Agree with Shep above, lameness and work just don't go together, my girl may be fine and not hurting but I wouldn't dream of getting on her back.
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : coldicote lyn
Date : 27.01.04 8:11:00 AM
It's made me think that the vets are wrong for some time. I had a young horse that suddenly went lame. Vet xrayed and could find nothing wrong, except horse nerve blocked out to the foot. Over a period of time he got worse and worse, but still no real diagnosis other than 'its probably got navicular'. Vet organised for their surgical farrier to shoe him with egg bars and special gel pads. Horse was crippld afterwards, really lame. Vet said its fine he's just adjusting to new shoes and to give him time, put him out in the field. He was so lame it was cruel to do that, so we referred him back to vet who said maybe it was time to stop treating and pts. We said no way and definitely not without a proper diagnosis. Susan Swann emailed me and suggested cytek shoes as a last resort and Warwick came out to shoe my horse. The horse was 99.9% sound after shoeing and has got sounder and fitter ever since. I took horse back to vet who was gobsmacked, gave him a treatment of shockwave therapy and he has never looked back. I always thought this horse had sprained something inside the foot and never thought he had navicular.
I also have a super young dressage horse who is only 5. He was sound 150% when purchased for a client. One day out of the blue he came in from the field with horrendous lameness... he seemed fracture lame so was xrayed. Vet noticed no fracture but terrible navicular bones. Horse actually had bad pus in the foot rather than fracture. But from that day horse has been on and off lame. Vet says it's the navicular caught up with him. I think that he's lame as a result of the pus in the foot and damage to sole of foot by vet digging out abscess. He has very thin soles and I think this horse feels solar pain rather than pain from navicular bone. Unfortunately cytek did not suit this horse and he will be shod in egg bars with pad and I think he will then come right..... fingers crossed!!
My vet never suggested an MRI scan for the first horse, just rubbed his forehead and said it's navicular because he couldn't think of anything else.
I would love to know more research on cases of horses who have been wrongly diagnosed. After all, navicular is a syndrome isn't it???
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Wendy
Date : 27.01.04 8:17:00 AM
It's interesting but Jaime Jackson and many of the farriers-turned-natural-barefoot folk are also adamant that what is described as navicular is often soft tissue damage and inflammation. They attribute it to the way that many horses' feet are balanced (or not) by unnatural trimming and shoeing practises.
My mother-in-law had a horse diagnosed with navicular and the vet and OH were keen on the pts option. However, after a year off work she went sound and stayed sound ever since. My mother-in-law now thinks it was some sort of concussion injury from jumping too high on too hard a surface.
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Wildcard
Date : 27.01.04 8:23:00 AM
Lyn
Have seen the pictures of your young horse and would like to say he is truly gorgeous!!
My mare was very similar being sensitive on her soles and having not quite correct conformation in both legs.
I now have her in rolled toed shoes but my farrier nails an open weave mesh between shoe and foot and then places a liquid rubber solution bteen foot and mesh, he then lets that set by standing her on some sort of polystyrene (taped onto foot) for about 20 minutes.
I'm touching wood as we speak but it has completely changed the way that she goes, no longer sore soles, weel supported soles that are hard is what we see now when they are removed.
The beauty is nothing can penetrate and since it forms a seal around the sole and just into the heel no foreign objects can enter either. They have a degree of 'give' and also absorb concussion.
Probably teaching you to suck eggs! lol but thought it might be worth mentioning. If you want to talk more about it though let me know
W x
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Beccy D
Date : 27.01.04 9:37:00 AM
Oscar kept going intermittently lame, on a scale of 1-10, 1 being the best, he was a 2, this was only on hard surfaces and on a circle.
After nerve blocks in the lower leg, he did go sound, x-rays, nothing showed up, apart from what good bone structure he has got.
Oscar is only 6 and has not done an awful lot really, some local show jumpin always on a surfaace, no trotting on hard surfaces, so what is it?
The vets thought it was going to be navicular, the x-rays were sent off to the royal vet college in Potters bar for a second opinion, (basically my vets were stumped as they couldn't see anything wrong). Oscar was put on a course of Circulon Oralject paste (what a nightmare medication to give a horse, it has to be sucked up a syringe, this is a paste not a liquid and inserted into the mouth, just the same as a wormer).
This paste thins the blood and increases the circulation to the lower leg. Oscar has been diagnosed with very thin soles and suffered bruising from the hard ground we had last summer, he is silly in the field always running round, so probably concussed from that.
Oscar has now been sound for 4 weeks and is back in steady work and is better than ever, Oscar is also Cytek shod and was before the problem, only shod twice before the lamesness came out.
They say that the bruising takes months to occur and months to rectify itself, he started healing as soon as the Cyteks went on that's why he was lame after shoeing, he is sound now and i am sooooo happy.
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Nettie
Date : 27.01.04 9:57:00 AM
I am not surprised to hear this at all. I am not blaming vets but they are largely educated and influenced by the drug companies as to what is right to give horses in such circumstances....funny that, isn't it! They are taught by the system to throw drugs at problems rather than investigate natural causes. Not the vets' fault, as I say, but systems are there to be questioned!
And research into such problems is generally funded by......drugs companies! Hmmm....
I had a vet who, when Chelsea went lame a few years back, said she was arthritic and would always need bute. I insisted on further investigation, x rays showed she had inflamed an old ligament injury, she had 6 months rest and was sound as a pound after, and has been ever since.
I liken it to doctors who throw anti depressants at anyone who is feeling a bit low.
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Emma S
Date : 27.01.04 10:16:00 AM
I too was delighted by this report as it highlights the problems that vets have in diagnosing navicular; and how its turned into a catch all for undiagnosed lameness. My old mare had undiagnosed lameness and had all sorts of scans etc at Liverpool but to no avail. Luckily it turned out to be linked to a neck prob which a chiro sorted out.
Having bursitis of the trochanter I can sympathise with horses that have been 'worked through' mis-diagnosed navicular & ended up worse than before, and inevitably pts.
In my case i had v strong pain killers (dihydrocodeine)handed out to me as if they were sweets, and they didn't work any way ! If i'd been a horse i wouldn't be here now.
From : Judith
Date : 26.01.04 11:02:00 PM
In the current issue of Horse and Hound there is an article about MRI scanning of horses and so far, with only a small number of these machines available and with a fairly low number of horse patients they have discovered that 70% of cases previously diagnosed as navicular were not, they were soft tissue injuries.
This is not necessarily good news for the horse, because the injury might be very severe, but the treatment is exactly the opposite. A horse with navicular would continue in work, whereas one with a soft tissue injury would need rest to give a chance to heal.
What next?
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : shep
Date : 27.01.04 8:00:00 AM
It's a really good point Judith, and makes me think it's certainly best to have a horse 'correctly' diagnosed before beginning a course of therapy; however, if a horse is lame (whatever the reason) I would not work him.... excersize maybe, but not work.
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : shelley w/holly
Date : 27.01.04 8:11:00 AM
I remember when my vet diagnosed our chestnut mare with navicular he said something I'll never forget:
'there was a survey done with 100 vets and lamish horses, each horse was x-rayed and 90 out of that 100 was diagnosed with navicular on the results of x-rays and nerve blocking. Now only 5 out of that 100 horses actually had navicular or any sign of lameness at all'.
My vet said that the x-rays showing navicular bone wear was the result of normal wear due to jumping etc and couldn't really be used to diagnose navicular. My mare has since been un-diagnosed with navicular. She has a definate bone growth around her near fetlock and we've since heard about her awful accident involving a 3' jump, a 9' drop into a stoney river bed. She still limps and I don't think we'll ever ride her but the vet says she doesn't seem to be in pain but it's an old injury and she'll probably always limp. Funnily enough she only limps in walk and trot, when she canters and gallops in the field with her friends she's as flowing as the wind, wonderful to see and the vet says she wouldn't do that if it hurt!
Agree with Shep above, lameness and work just don't go together, my girl may be fine and not hurting but I wouldn't dream of getting on her back.
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : coldicote lyn
Date : 27.01.04 8:11:00 AM
It's made me think that the vets are wrong for some time. I had a young horse that suddenly went lame. Vet xrayed and could find nothing wrong, except horse nerve blocked out to the foot. Over a period of time he got worse and worse, but still no real diagnosis other than 'its probably got navicular'. Vet organised for their surgical farrier to shoe him with egg bars and special gel pads. Horse was crippld afterwards, really lame. Vet said its fine he's just adjusting to new shoes and to give him time, put him out in the field. He was so lame it was cruel to do that, so we referred him back to vet who said maybe it was time to stop treating and pts. We said no way and definitely not without a proper diagnosis. Susan Swann emailed me and suggested cytek shoes as a last resort and Warwick came out to shoe my horse. The horse was 99.9% sound after shoeing and has got sounder and fitter ever since. I took horse back to vet who was gobsmacked, gave him a treatment of shockwave therapy and he has never looked back. I always thought this horse had sprained something inside the foot and never thought he had navicular.
I also have a super young dressage horse who is only 5. He was sound 150% when purchased for a client. One day out of the blue he came in from the field with horrendous lameness... he seemed fracture lame so was xrayed. Vet noticed no fracture but terrible navicular bones. Horse actually had bad pus in the foot rather than fracture. But from that day horse has been on and off lame. Vet says it's the navicular caught up with him. I think that he's lame as a result of the pus in the foot and damage to sole of foot by vet digging out abscess. He has very thin soles and I think this horse feels solar pain rather than pain from navicular bone. Unfortunately cytek did not suit this horse and he will be shod in egg bars with pad and I think he will then come right..... fingers crossed!!
My vet never suggested an MRI scan for the first horse, just rubbed his forehead and said it's navicular because he couldn't think of anything else.
I would love to know more research on cases of horses who have been wrongly diagnosed. After all, navicular is a syndrome isn't it???
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Wendy
Date : 27.01.04 8:17:00 AM
It's interesting but Jaime Jackson and many of the farriers-turned-natural-barefoot folk are also adamant that what is described as navicular is often soft tissue damage and inflammation. They attribute it to the way that many horses' feet are balanced (or not) by unnatural trimming and shoeing practises.
My mother-in-law had a horse diagnosed with navicular and the vet and OH were keen on the pts option. However, after a year off work she went sound and stayed sound ever since. My mother-in-law now thinks it was some sort of concussion injury from jumping too high on too hard a surface.
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Wildcard
Date : 27.01.04 8:23:00 AM
Lyn
Have seen the pictures of your young horse and would like to say he is truly gorgeous!!
My mare was very similar being sensitive on her soles and having not quite correct conformation in both legs.
I now have her in rolled toed shoes but my farrier nails an open weave mesh between shoe and foot and then places a liquid rubber solution bteen foot and mesh, he then lets that set by standing her on some sort of polystyrene (taped onto foot) for about 20 minutes.
I'm touching wood as we speak but it has completely changed the way that she goes, no longer sore soles, weel supported soles that are hard is what we see now when they are removed.
The beauty is nothing can penetrate and since it forms a seal around the sole and just into the heel no foreign objects can enter either. They have a degree of 'give' and also absorb concussion.
Probably teaching you to suck eggs! lol but thought it might be worth mentioning. If you want to talk more about it though let me know
W x
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Beccy D
Date : 27.01.04 9:37:00 AM
Oscar kept going intermittently lame, on a scale of 1-10, 1 being the best, he was a 2, this was only on hard surfaces and on a circle.
After nerve blocks in the lower leg, he did go sound, x-rays, nothing showed up, apart from what good bone structure he has got.
Oscar is only 6 and has not done an awful lot really, some local show jumpin always on a surfaace, no trotting on hard surfaces, so what is it?
The vets thought it was going to be navicular, the x-rays were sent off to the royal vet college in Potters bar for a second opinion, (basically my vets were stumped as they couldn't see anything wrong). Oscar was put on a course of Circulon Oralject paste (what a nightmare medication to give a horse, it has to be sucked up a syringe, this is a paste not a liquid and inserted into the mouth, just the same as a wormer).
This paste thins the blood and increases the circulation to the lower leg. Oscar has been diagnosed with very thin soles and suffered bruising from the hard ground we had last summer, he is silly in the field always running round, so probably concussed from that.
Oscar has now been sound for 4 weeks and is back in steady work and is better than ever, Oscar is also Cytek shod and was before the problem, only shod twice before the lamesness came out.
They say that the bruising takes months to occur and months to rectify itself, he started healing as soon as the Cyteks went on that's why he was lame after shoeing, he is sound now and i am sooooo happy.
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Nettie
Date : 27.01.04 9:57:00 AM
I am not surprised to hear this at all. I am not blaming vets but they are largely educated and influenced by the drug companies as to what is right to give horses in such circumstances....funny that, isn't it! They are taught by the system to throw drugs at problems rather than investigate natural causes. Not the vets' fault, as I say, but systems are there to be questioned!
And research into such problems is generally funded by......drugs companies! Hmmm....
I had a vet who, when Chelsea went lame a few years back, said she was arthritic and would always need bute. I insisted on further investigation, x rays showed she had inflamed an old ligament injury, she had 6 months rest and was sound as a pound after, and has been ever since.
I liken it to doctors who throw anti depressants at anyone who is feeling a bit low.
Subject : re:- Not Navicular in 70% of Cases
From : Emma S
Date : 27.01.04 10:16:00 AM
I too was delighted by this report as it highlights the problems that vets have in diagnosing navicular; and how its turned into a catch all for undiagnosed lameness. My old mare had undiagnosed lameness and had all sorts of scans etc at Liverpool but to no avail. Luckily it turned out to be linked to a neck prob which a chiro sorted out.
Having bursitis of the trochanter I can sympathise with horses that have been 'worked through' mis-diagnosed navicular & ended up worse than before, and inevitably pts.
In my case i had v strong pain killers (dihydrocodeine)handed out to me as if they were sweets, and they didn't work any way ! If i'd been a horse i wouldn't be here now.
