Post by Susan on Aug 5, 2005 23:42:06 GMT 1
Subject : Basic riding skills
From : Laura (Taz)
Date : 31.07.05 7:50:00 PM
I have mentioned similar within the context of other threads before but today prompts me to invite comments the topic specifically.
First of all I will say that I do not consider myself even a "good" rider (depends on how one defines the word though I suppose) in that I do not have the best of "stickability" or balance. However I DO try to ride sympathetically and be as safe and effective as I can at a basic level - to be basic is to be able to hack out safely including able to negotate obstacles, be able to steer effectively and place horse where required. I would expect this to be done at walk then at other paces.
A young lady in her mid 20's rode out with me today as she wants to share my daughters horse. In her mail to me she said she wanted to learn about "keeping" a horse but "riding no problem" as she said she had ridden on and off for 12 years. She tells me she is having jumping lessons and doing lots of canter work etc.
However ......
she had no idea that one could / should turn a horse with weight aids not just pulling on the reins.
she did not know to ask a horse to back up
she did not know how to turn the back end of a horse
she could not identify which hind leg moving under (or even know that one should be able to so in order to apply some aids correctly)
I could go on. I think you get the picture......
What "disturbs" me is that people can attend riding lessons ..... ( and one of the riding schools she mentioned to me is a well known and "respected" local one)...... for several years and such BASIC skills are not instilled.
If she is learning to jump ..... How can a rider balance a horse to jump safely and effectively if turning is affected by rein aids only ? I watched Alison Dawes teach a series of jumping lessons and at the beginning of each session (indeed for most of the first session!!!) she concentrated on turns at walk PROPERLY DONE. That shows how important it is !
Sadly this young lady is not an exception .... and if she ( and others I have noted) had been "self taught" there might be some "excuse" ..... but to have been taught at registered establishments .......
Why / How does this happen ?
Would others consider the list above skills / knowledge a basic requirement to be assimilated before one allowed to trot never mind canter?
........and well I might be inviting it here .... but ... do some people think that it is expecting too much that all riders should be able to do these things?
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Laura (Taz)
Date : 31.07.05 10:48:00 PM
BTW just thought I would reiterate that I did not "hold this against her" - I find it sad in a way that she said she had learnt such a lot on our little relaxed hack and felt it more beneficial than what she was currently doing at riding school. WE will be having a months trial to see how we get on !!!!
I am also not decrying per se riding schools or instructers ..... or any particular "method" ....
It is just an observation / question as it puzzles me !!!
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From :
Date : 31.07.05 11:15:00 PM
I know where your comming from. As a child, my parents were anti horse for their own reasons.I rode a lot and read as much as I could understand (without my parents knowing).When I did have lessons I was astonished that instructors dont actually teach you basic aids, they seem to automatically assume that you know them. Ive had many instructors and know the aids, but through books not them. If I hadnt done my homework Id have got nowhere. Thats awful isnt it when your talking private lessons.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Heather Moffett
Date : 01.08.05 7:53:00 AM
Oh, dont I know just what you mean!! I run workshops here with my Equisimulators, to teach riders the exact basics you mention above!! Many of them have been riding ten, twenty even thirty years. I guarantee that if you did a poll here and on other forums, that the vast majority of riders have not been taught these essential basics, because they are just not part of the teaching of riding in general.
It was not until I trained Classically with the late Capt Desi Lorent, student of the great Maestro Nuno Oliveira, that I was taught these very same things.
I began a thread on my own website forum only last week, about this very subject.I ask students on my workshops to send me a video prior to coming so that I can assess their problems and help them as much as possible.
I had to sit down with a large scotch just to get through some of them one evening last week. It is not the poor riders I am angry with, as you say I just feel very sorry for them that they have to pay me to come on a workshop to be taught stuff that I teach beginners on their first couple of lessons.
What saddens me even more is the plight of the horse. One video was of a rider having a private lesson at a well known school, and having great trouble getting the horse going forward. The instructor remarked that she was working much harder than the horse.
What the instructor didnt 'see'- because it was clear that shhe didnt know ( a BHSII) was that the rider was totally blocking the horse's ability to move, so the rider was handed a whip to wallop it to get the poor thing 'motivated'.
This undoubtedly happens day in and day out- is it any wonder that so many riding school horses look like zombies- totally shut down and switched off?
I collated a whole series of case studies a couple of years ago and sent them to the BHS with my concerns. I did not even receive a reply. I sent the dossier again, and stil no reply. I filled in the feedback form on the website- still nothing. I am a long term member of the BHS because I believe that we do need a strong national body, but I havent a shred of belief in the current 'teaching' standards.
Mind you, it is not just here, my workshop this week has two riders from the Canary Islands, one from the Czech Republic, one from Saudi Arabia and one from the USA!
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From :
Date : 01.08.05 8:16:00 AM
People don't want to pay the price for regular lessons from a good instrucor, they look for the cheapest and go once a month, what use is that? Some people don't have lessons at all, which I think is wrong, I compete at faily high levels and have done for 14 years but I still have lessons every week and wouldn't even consider giving lessons as I don't think I'm qualified. I see instructors coming on to our yard that have absolutely no qualifications, have never ridden at any serious level and haven't a clue what they are teaching but they make good money by being cheap and cheeky enough to call themselves teachers.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Heather Moffett
Date : 01.08.05 8:26:00 AM
The students I refer to in the above post are certainly not going to cheap instructors, these were private lessons, (some costing £45 an hour at the bigger schools) either at approved schools or with BHS qualified freelance instructors.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Charlie
Date : 01.08.05 8:57:00 AM
Hi OP,
I would also completely agree with you. I took on a remedial case in the form of a 16.2 hanxTB after not having ridden for a couple of years. It became obvious to me that though she had been ridden by trainers who were competing at moderate BD level, she had to be the most uncomfortable, aggitated horse I ahd ever coem across. This was a revelation to me as it suddenly dawned on me that something very wrong was happening. I had been riding for years and yet had always felt frustrated and lost after lessons, it felt like I was doing teh same old thing over and over and progessing nowhere. Like the anon above I started reading and researching avidly and this is were I learnt more than I had ever in a riding school. I sort out the classically minded, including Heather and went on one of her 3 day courses, to find that all my years of riding upto that point were infact highly pointless and had ingrained so many BAD habits, that were affecting the horse.
I must however standup for the BHS in the fact that as a BHSPT, I know how much detail is needed to pass the exams and indeed at Stage3 the sylibus contains all the basics that have been listed above, I do believe that the exams today DO give a solid base to any instructor, but it is the instrcutors responsibility to furtehr their knoledge and experience and not become stale and apathetic, which seems to be the general rule. I have no idea why the "qualified" BHS instrcutors I was initially taught by did not install these basics, my only idea is that like many I learnt to ride as a child and teaching children the finer arts of seat aids etc is near on impossibel in a riding school enviroment, as parents want results and children want to progress towards cantering/jumping well before they should in a perfect world. I doubt many kids would stick out the many months, years it takes to establish a correct walk/position/sitting trot!? when there friends maybe cantering around at PC. I think the instrcution of children is vitally important in producing correct/knoledgable adult riders, but how do you go about initiating this into a school enviroment where parents are paying for obvious progress and results...how many non horsey parents would see the value in a the correct walk, inside leg to outside hand, when they could watch their child gallavanting around doing mounted games, pulling and kicking however!
Therefore there is a logistical problem here. Adults can indeed make the choice to further their knoledge and find inspiration in accomplished trainers, learning the intricacies and polishing their aids/position etc. But if youa re taught from youth a certain "get there quick" method, WHICH THE MAJORITY OF KIDS AND PARENTS WANT! how can any one expect them to be accomplished with what "we" call the basics. I the equine industry is like any otehr product based market and while parents, kids and teh majority of adults want to just gallivant around and run before they can walk, then instructors BHS or not will find it very difficult to encourage them to take a much slower, if not more effective path. Most people I know what to ride for fun and as a hobby, I for one wish to use riding/training as my career and thus I choose to study hard and devote most of my waking hours to perfecting my skills. It is a full time learning curve, as is hard work load, learning the theoretical techniques, practically using them, experimenting, practising, taking exams etc etc etc...how many hobby riders have the time or even inclination to read a BIG FAT book about the intraciacies of dressage? obviously in a perfect world they all would, but this sin't perfcet world and I belive that a lot of the awful riding we see today is because the riders DO NOT WANT TO LEARN FURTHER and are content with what they are doing! how can you educate those who do not want education? C
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : shelley w/holly
Date : 01.08.05 9:53:00 AM
Hi Laura,
I too find this sort of training upsetting. I used to think I knew about riding and classified myself as a good rider until I got my own first horse and then had to figure out a way of training for us both.
Luckily I started Parelli and have never looked back, my riding is now coming along well and I started Holly with the PNH system and also am 'playing' with Stormy and will start him under saddle the same way. I couldn't believe how much I didn't know about the ins and outs of the horse foot falls, how to move the back end, back up, lateral and vertical flexion and general horse behaviour and body language.
The one thing I've learned studying again at my age is that it's me that needed to change, I had to learn and that for some people is incredibly difficult.
Shelley
www.horsecare.org.uk
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From :
Date : 01.08.05 11:46:00 AM
As expected no one really interrested, seems to back up the point Charlie made!
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Susan
Date : 01.08.05 12:30:00 AM
Laura (Taz) Oh dont I know where you are coming from. Look at my threads ref MW lessons and the slating that has brought.
Why because I was unhappy with not learning to become effective a rider, and in the end belived ( wrongly ) I couldnt ride ! because if others could make my horse move and I couldnt, it must be me.
So I sat and thought, gave it time, watched others and listened to others having MW lessons to realise I had to change the route I went to be able to learn.
No I am not selling MW I am selling the annoyance of al those instructors out there, taking the money and not teaching basics. Use the same old words and expecting it is understood without even checking that it is. The trainer who shouts..GOOD GOOD Yes that is it! and when you watch you see nothing changed it wasnt good and it wasnt IT at all.
Yes all so called good trainers, qualified and extremely god and effective riders. but as for teaching what they do, they dont.
They accept the rider not moving on and blame them for their lack of improvement, when it is the trainer who has run out of tools to teach effectively across the whole spectrum of rideres to be.
regards eveb know that you dont turn a horse with rein aids, is something I have tried and tried to explain to a guy in our yard who has ridden since a child ( he is 54) and at one stage had lessons with my last calssical trainer every week for two years!!!!!! and still does not understand you dont pull the right rein to go right! and you dont pull on both reins to stop and you dont kick in the gits to go!
Basics. he has no idea the horse is aimed at being a rear engine drive! he still believes you pull the horseinto a outline and that is correct.
He is one of many out there.
he also thinks moving with the horse is MOVING! back and forwards int he saddle, he thinks allowing with the hands is whipping up eggs with the reins! and then he expects his horse to want to move or even be able to.
I so want to get him to get down on all fours, have a metal bar in his mouth, with string attached, I will sit on his backa nd do his moving with the horse, and allow with the reins and then kick in the belly and then say, OH you are not being good and accepting all these aids and beinga nice shape and going forward!
AGAIn he is one of many, who have no idea.
I knew a lot but I was at a loss to stop how I was behaving on the horse through lack of true understanding of "moving" with the horse, True understanding of ask and allow and leave alone! with leg aids to get a horse to understand off the leg! and feel along the reins and allow as they relaxed..
Heather will understand all I am saying as well.
I can only say this...after lesson no 6! I am still WOW with it all and so look forward to learning more and more. The partnership just gets better and better with Flynn and I.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Charlie
Date : 01.08.05 2:02:00 PM
As mentioned before and as sussan has pin pointed, may people are ahppy with teh way they ride, the traditions they were taught as youngsters and have chosen NOT to re- educate themselves, or try to udnerstand the different routes to success. I hold fast to not JUST blaming the instruction, I have organised clinics with some trainers I really respect and some form my yard ahve tacken part only to compeltely ignore the advise and carryon regardless as they did before, resulting in stiff, unsupple horses and this was with a trainer who is clear in his explanations, not pretencious or pompous, results were made in 45mins, but ahev soem individuals botehred to practise, NO! So if this is the result of lessons witha "good" clasical trainer, what hope is there for these lazy people with any otehr instrcutor!
As siad the BHS format has taught me alot, the biomechanics of the horse, dinamic and static conformation. Correct training and wya of going! it takes two to tango, trainers must keep adding to tehir knoledge base, such places as the TTT for exmaple and clients MUST want to learn!!!!! I have taught people myself who I have tried to explain the basics of biomechanics and rider position and guess what tehy carryon riding as they did before in the spare time and only botehr when I'm there and even then its almost half hearted (like when are we gonna jump, am bored of this position stuff!) what can I, or anyother instrcutor do in this circumstance!?
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Laura (Taz)
Date : 01.08.05 3:00:00 PM
thanks very much for your input guys and gals :-)
I agree with charlie in that part of the reason is that at the very basic level /with children ... many riders equate "improving" as being able to trot /canter /jump ( I was prob like that when young too !!! ) Also Young children may not have the physical coordination or length of leg to be able to apply the aids technically correctly. However if they are "horsed" accordingly and instructed accordingly it is still possible for even a young child to back up a horse for example ... (or even when overhorsed !!!! .... my three year old grandchild can back up my 14.2 welsh cob. She would not get very high dressage score LOL LOL ... and she uses voice to back up rein aids .... but at least she can do it !!!!)
but I am talking about what I would define as REALLY basic riding here ...not the "finer arts". To me getting "reverse" in a horse is a SAFETY issue, especially out hacking ... and asking a horse to move its rear end round when opening a gate makes it much easier as well as more elegant LOL.
If I can get someone riding my horse (and Taz is certainly no highly trained dressge horse LOL) to turn her (no real accuracy just going in a general direction) with just "looking where you want to go" aids, back her up and turn her rear end in both directions .... all within 10 minutes ....... then it beggars belief that this is not done for all riders first lessons in EVERY riding school in the country. It is a demonstration of the movements you will need to build on and refine in the weeks and months as you progress.
Since Heather you are already in contact with BHS on this topic and not receiving much joy - I wonder what the answer is How can the clients "complain" when they dont know what is "missing".
At what stage I wonder , in the learning plan / sylabus that I presume every instructor must complete, does it mention a rider be made aware of these basic requirements. I would have thought that the learning plan is not entirely client led ...... it can't be for safetys sake as well as any future exams .... clients who do not know what they need to know do not know what they need to learn LOL
Susan , I will look at your threads (and might connect what MW lewssons are) .... oh and the "ask, allow and leave alone" ... how I soooo agree, another point I was explaining to the young sharer !!!!
One thing I have noticed with her is tense hands ... we will really have to work on that as I think she has been used to "taking a contact" but in reality pulling horses head in to "make the shape" as well as all changfes in pace / direction stemming form the hands
...... so I asked her to look at Taz walking out ... look at her low relaxed head position ..... but then ignore that and look at Taz's hind leg action, where her feet were landing and explain the effective movement of that being much more important !!!! I explained that a horse could have a head and neck in "the position" ... but still be trailing the engine behind LOL.
Ah well ...... I know there ARE good instructors out there, but surely more of them need to be less client led and more firm about instilling basic riding skills.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Charlie
Date : 01.08.05 3:20:00 PM
Hi Laura,
in terms of the BHSPTT, the guidleines are very much customer preference and hwo to encourage clients to "want" to carry on riding, indeed we had to learn and disscuss sports pshycology in ref to teaching begginers. It is a very difficult area, as said if riding schools had the resources to offer well schooled ponies, it would be alot easier to teach the young, wthout making them feel useless and having no fun!
I personally would allow kids to have their fun and become confident doing what they enjoy and then when they either choose to carryon in early teens or giveup as many do! Then introduce what "they" would deem theory and most probably a bit borring!
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Laura (Taz)
Date : 01.08.05 3:22:00 PM
Posts crossed charlie
I wholeheatedly take your point Charlie that pupils do not always either listen or follow up what tutor says .... I KNOW this because I was a tutor in the health care sector and an NVQ assessor for many years !!! There were times when someone swore blind they had not heard of something I knew they had not only been told .... they had had written handouts about LOL
However two points I suppose ......
it seems there are such a lot of riders out there that are ignorant of these basic aids ..... and they are soo useful there seems to be no motivation for saying that they have never been taught these movements.
Pehaps if instructers were to refuse to let a rider trot / canter / jump until they could back up / turn horses rear end fro expample (even if it was just at a rudementary level) then the importance of them would be instilled.
I know how difficult it is unless such measures are introduced. I tried to instil in my own daughter the importance of these things ..... but she (like most horse mad kids then teens) was FAR more interested in going fast and jumping.
In order for me to motivate her to apply leg yields ( to move horse into side of the road out hacking LOL) I had to say she could not ride out alone or do jumping unitl she did this consistanly out supervised by me ... oh was I the evil mum LOL ..... but it worked !!!! and in return she got a more responsive horse whos work in the jumping arena also improved .....
longer term therefore she acknowledged that leg yielding had its uses LOL (even though of course I know nothing about teaching / jumping LOL because I dont jump !!!!!!!
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Laura (Taz)
Date : 01.08.05 3:46:00 PM
crossing again LOL
Oh yes , riding should be FUN .... totally agree...
However teaching these things it can be done in a fun and experiential way ...... ( by far the best way to teach almost any subject is to make it as experiential as possible ..... people take far more on board things they feel that what they read !!!!)
We had a fun show day at a livery yard I was at for a few years .... I was organising a "handy pony" class but it was not based on time , it was based in points gained for kind, effective riding through ten obstacles.
The youngsters loved it even when they "failed " and obstacle ..... because althought they lost points if they got exasperated with pony or just abandonded the task , they gained points back if they asked for help and made it through the obstacle.
Afterwards several of them asked me to show them again how to do these things . The following year many of them demonstrated that they had kept up with what they had learnt ... and in fact the course was then too easy for some of them !!!!
Also I am not just talking about children .... I am talking about adults.
N. (sharer) says she has been riding since she was 12 - she is now 25 !!!
Mother of one of the girls mentioned above rather older than 25 LOL ( she is my friend so she wont mind if I LOL)
I agree it is hard to find / keep well schooled ponies, especailly in a riding school environment with less balanced and skillful people on board........ but surely ALL ponies capable of backing up and turning bum ? Most of them will know the words and do it every day from the ground as we do everyday things with them.
Is it really asking toooo much for even just these two things ?
Surely teaching these can be be done in a little time and can lead to something "impressive", highly visible and achievable. These two skills more than almost any other form the basis for sooooo mcuh more.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Susan
Date : 01.08.05 11:04:00 PM
The MW is
Mary Wanless
sorry get so used to doing that..
I also understand fully the rider who believes held in nice shape is a great outline..
I have even heard riders shout at their horses, "Head Carriage PLease!!!!!!!"
and expect their horse to go like that and it is in self carriage! let go of the reins and see! is what I would more likely ask
From : Laura (Taz)
Date : 31.07.05 7:50:00 PM
I have mentioned similar within the context of other threads before but today prompts me to invite comments the topic specifically.
First of all I will say that I do not consider myself even a "good" rider (depends on how one defines the word though I suppose) in that I do not have the best of "stickability" or balance. However I DO try to ride sympathetically and be as safe and effective as I can at a basic level - to be basic is to be able to hack out safely including able to negotate obstacles, be able to steer effectively and place horse where required. I would expect this to be done at walk then at other paces.
A young lady in her mid 20's rode out with me today as she wants to share my daughters horse. In her mail to me she said she wanted to learn about "keeping" a horse but "riding no problem" as she said she had ridden on and off for 12 years. She tells me she is having jumping lessons and doing lots of canter work etc.
However ......
she had no idea that one could / should turn a horse with weight aids not just pulling on the reins.
she did not know to ask a horse to back up
she did not know how to turn the back end of a horse
she could not identify which hind leg moving under (or even know that one should be able to so in order to apply some aids correctly)
I could go on. I think you get the picture......
What "disturbs" me is that people can attend riding lessons ..... ( and one of the riding schools she mentioned to me is a well known and "respected" local one)...... for several years and such BASIC skills are not instilled.
If she is learning to jump ..... How can a rider balance a horse to jump safely and effectively if turning is affected by rein aids only ? I watched Alison Dawes teach a series of jumping lessons and at the beginning of each session (indeed for most of the first session!!!) she concentrated on turns at walk PROPERLY DONE. That shows how important it is !
Sadly this young lady is not an exception .... and if she ( and others I have noted) had been "self taught" there might be some "excuse" ..... but to have been taught at registered establishments .......
Why / How does this happen ?
Would others consider the list above skills / knowledge a basic requirement to be assimilated before one allowed to trot never mind canter?
........and well I might be inviting it here .... but ... do some people think that it is expecting too much that all riders should be able to do these things?
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Laura (Taz)
Date : 31.07.05 10:48:00 PM
BTW just thought I would reiterate that I did not "hold this against her" - I find it sad in a way that she said she had learnt such a lot on our little relaxed hack and felt it more beneficial than what she was currently doing at riding school. WE will be having a months trial to see how we get on !!!!
I am also not decrying per se riding schools or instructers ..... or any particular "method" ....
It is just an observation / question as it puzzles me !!!
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From :
Date : 31.07.05 11:15:00 PM
I know where your comming from. As a child, my parents were anti horse for their own reasons.I rode a lot and read as much as I could understand (without my parents knowing).When I did have lessons I was astonished that instructors dont actually teach you basic aids, they seem to automatically assume that you know them. Ive had many instructors and know the aids, but through books not them. If I hadnt done my homework Id have got nowhere. Thats awful isnt it when your talking private lessons.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Heather Moffett
Date : 01.08.05 7:53:00 AM
Oh, dont I know just what you mean!! I run workshops here with my Equisimulators, to teach riders the exact basics you mention above!! Many of them have been riding ten, twenty even thirty years. I guarantee that if you did a poll here and on other forums, that the vast majority of riders have not been taught these essential basics, because they are just not part of the teaching of riding in general.
It was not until I trained Classically with the late Capt Desi Lorent, student of the great Maestro Nuno Oliveira, that I was taught these very same things.
I began a thread on my own website forum only last week, about this very subject.I ask students on my workshops to send me a video prior to coming so that I can assess their problems and help them as much as possible.
I had to sit down with a large scotch just to get through some of them one evening last week. It is not the poor riders I am angry with, as you say I just feel very sorry for them that they have to pay me to come on a workshop to be taught stuff that I teach beginners on their first couple of lessons.
What saddens me even more is the plight of the horse. One video was of a rider having a private lesson at a well known school, and having great trouble getting the horse going forward. The instructor remarked that she was working much harder than the horse.
What the instructor didnt 'see'- because it was clear that shhe didnt know ( a BHSII) was that the rider was totally blocking the horse's ability to move, so the rider was handed a whip to wallop it to get the poor thing 'motivated'.
This undoubtedly happens day in and day out- is it any wonder that so many riding school horses look like zombies- totally shut down and switched off?
I collated a whole series of case studies a couple of years ago and sent them to the BHS with my concerns. I did not even receive a reply. I sent the dossier again, and stil no reply. I filled in the feedback form on the website- still nothing. I am a long term member of the BHS because I believe that we do need a strong national body, but I havent a shred of belief in the current 'teaching' standards.
Mind you, it is not just here, my workshop this week has two riders from the Canary Islands, one from the Czech Republic, one from Saudi Arabia and one from the USA!
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From :
Date : 01.08.05 8:16:00 AM
People don't want to pay the price for regular lessons from a good instrucor, they look for the cheapest and go once a month, what use is that? Some people don't have lessons at all, which I think is wrong, I compete at faily high levels and have done for 14 years but I still have lessons every week and wouldn't even consider giving lessons as I don't think I'm qualified. I see instructors coming on to our yard that have absolutely no qualifications, have never ridden at any serious level and haven't a clue what they are teaching but they make good money by being cheap and cheeky enough to call themselves teachers.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Heather Moffett
Date : 01.08.05 8:26:00 AM
The students I refer to in the above post are certainly not going to cheap instructors, these were private lessons, (some costing £45 an hour at the bigger schools) either at approved schools or with BHS qualified freelance instructors.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Charlie
Date : 01.08.05 8:57:00 AM
Hi OP,
I would also completely agree with you. I took on a remedial case in the form of a 16.2 hanxTB after not having ridden for a couple of years. It became obvious to me that though she had been ridden by trainers who were competing at moderate BD level, she had to be the most uncomfortable, aggitated horse I ahd ever coem across. This was a revelation to me as it suddenly dawned on me that something very wrong was happening. I had been riding for years and yet had always felt frustrated and lost after lessons, it felt like I was doing teh same old thing over and over and progessing nowhere. Like the anon above I started reading and researching avidly and this is were I learnt more than I had ever in a riding school. I sort out the classically minded, including Heather and went on one of her 3 day courses, to find that all my years of riding upto that point were infact highly pointless and had ingrained so many BAD habits, that were affecting the horse.
I must however standup for the BHS in the fact that as a BHSPT, I know how much detail is needed to pass the exams and indeed at Stage3 the sylibus contains all the basics that have been listed above, I do believe that the exams today DO give a solid base to any instructor, but it is the instrcutors responsibility to furtehr their knoledge and experience and not become stale and apathetic, which seems to be the general rule. I have no idea why the "qualified" BHS instrcutors I was initially taught by did not install these basics, my only idea is that like many I learnt to ride as a child and teaching children the finer arts of seat aids etc is near on impossibel in a riding school enviroment, as parents want results and children want to progress towards cantering/jumping well before they should in a perfect world. I doubt many kids would stick out the many months, years it takes to establish a correct walk/position/sitting trot!? when there friends maybe cantering around at PC. I think the instrcution of children is vitally important in producing correct/knoledgable adult riders, but how do you go about initiating this into a school enviroment where parents are paying for obvious progress and results...how many non horsey parents would see the value in a the correct walk, inside leg to outside hand, when they could watch their child gallavanting around doing mounted games, pulling and kicking however!
Therefore there is a logistical problem here. Adults can indeed make the choice to further their knoledge and find inspiration in accomplished trainers, learning the intricacies and polishing their aids/position etc. But if youa re taught from youth a certain "get there quick" method, WHICH THE MAJORITY OF KIDS AND PARENTS WANT! how can any one expect them to be accomplished with what "we" call the basics. I the equine industry is like any otehr product based market and while parents, kids and teh majority of adults want to just gallivant around and run before they can walk, then instructors BHS or not will find it very difficult to encourage them to take a much slower, if not more effective path. Most people I know what to ride for fun and as a hobby, I for one wish to use riding/training as my career and thus I choose to study hard and devote most of my waking hours to perfecting my skills. It is a full time learning curve, as is hard work load, learning the theoretical techniques, practically using them, experimenting, practising, taking exams etc etc etc...how many hobby riders have the time or even inclination to read a BIG FAT book about the intraciacies of dressage? obviously in a perfect world they all would, but this sin't perfcet world and I belive that a lot of the awful riding we see today is because the riders DO NOT WANT TO LEARN FURTHER and are content with what they are doing! how can you educate those who do not want education? C
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : shelley w/holly
Date : 01.08.05 9:53:00 AM
Hi Laura,
I too find this sort of training upsetting. I used to think I knew about riding and classified myself as a good rider until I got my own first horse and then had to figure out a way of training for us both.
Luckily I started Parelli and have never looked back, my riding is now coming along well and I started Holly with the PNH system and also am 'playing' with Stormy and will start him under saddle the same way. I couldn't believe how much I didn't know about the ins and outs of the horse foot falls, how to move the back end, back up, lateral and vertical flexion and general horse behaviour and body language.
The one thing I've learned studying again at my age is that it's me that needed to change, I had to learn and that for some people is incredibly difficult.
Shelley
www.horsecare.org.uk
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From :
Date : 01.08.05 11:46:00 AM
As expected no one really interrested, seems to back up the point Charlie made!
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Susan
Date : 01.08.05 12:30:00 AM
Laura (Taz) Oh dont I know where you are coming from. Look at my threads ref MW lessons and the slating that has brought.
Why because I was unhappy with not learning to become effective a rider, and in the end belived ( wrongly ) I couldnt ride ! because if others could make my horse move and I couldnt, it must be me.
So I sat and thought, gave it time, watched others and listened to others having MW lessons to realise I had to change the route I went to be able to learn.
No I am not selling MW I am selling the annoyance of al those instructors out there, taking the money and not teaching basics. Use the same old words and expecting it is understood without even checking that it is. The trainer who shouts..GOOD GOOD Yes that is it! and when you watch you see nothing changed it wasnt good and it wasnt IT at all.
Yes all so called good trainers, qualified and extremely god and effective riders. but as for teaching what they do, they dont.
They accept the rider not moving on and blame them for their lack of improvement, when it is the trainer who has run out of tools to teach effectively across the whole spectrum of rideres to be.
regards eveb know that you dont turn a horse with rein aids, is something I have tried and tried to explain to a guy in our yard who has ridden since a child ( he is 54) and at one stage had lessons with my last calssical trainer every week for two years!!!!!! and still does not understand you dont pull the right rein to go right! and you dont pull on both reins to stop and you dont kick in the gits to go!
Basics. he has no idea the horse is aimed at being a rear engine drive! he still believes you pull the horseinto a outline and that is correct.
He is one of many out there.
he also thinks moving with the horse is MOVING! back and forwards int he saddle, he thinks allowing with the hands is whipping up eggs with the reins! and then he expects his horse to want to move or even be able to.
I so want to get him to get down on all fours, have a metal bar in his mouth, with string attached, I will sit on his backa nd do his moving with the horse, and allow with the reins and then kick in the belly and then say, OH you are not being good and accepting all these aids and beinga nice shape and going forward!
AGAIn he is one of many, who have no idea.
I knew a lot but I was at a loss to stop how I was behaving on the horse through lack of true understanding of "moving" with the horse, True understanding of ask and allow and leave alone! with leg aids to get a horse to understand off the leg! and feel along the reins and allow as they relaxed..
Heather will understand all I am saying as well.
I can only say this...after lesson no 6! I am still WOW with it all and so look forward to learning more and more. The partnership just gets better and better with Flynn and I.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Charlie
Date : 01.08.05 2:02:00 PM
As mentioned before and as sussan has pin pointed, may people are ahppy with teh way they ride, the traditions they were taught as youngsters and have chosen NOT to re- educate themselves, or try to udnerstand the different routes to success. I hold fast to not JUST blaming the instruction, I have organised clinics with some trainers I really respect and some form my yard ahve tacken part only to compeltely ignore the advise and carryon regardless as they did before, resulting in stiff, unsupple horses and this was with a trainer who is clear in his explanations, not pretencious or pompous, results were made in 45mins, but ahev soem individuals botehred to practise, NO! So if this is the result of lessons witha "good" clasical trainer, what hope is there for these lazy people with any otehr instrcutor!
As siad the BHS format has taught me alot, the biomechanics of the horse, dinamic and static conformation. Correct training and wya of going! it takes two to tango, trainers must keep adding to tehir knoledge base, such places as the TTT for exmaple and clients MUST want to learn!!!!! I have taught people myself who I have tried to explain the basics of biomechanics and rider position and guess what tehy carryon riding as they did before in the spare time and only botehr when I'm there and even then its almost half hearted (like when are we gonna jump, am bored of this position stuff!) what can I, or anyother instrcutor do in this circumstance!?
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Laura (Taz)
Date : 01.08.05 3:00:00 PM
thanks very much for your input guys and gals :-)
I agree with charlie in that part of the reason is that at the very basic level /with children ... many riders equate "improving" as being able to trot /canter /jump ( I was prob like that when young too !!! ) Also Young children may not have the physical coordination or length of leg to be able to apply the aids technically correctly. However if they are "horsed" accordingly and instructed accordingly it is still possible for even a young child to back up a horse for example ... (or even when overhorsed !!!! .... my three year old grandchild can back up my 14.2 welsh cob. She would not get very high dressage score LOL LOL ... and she uses voice to back up rein aids .... but at least she can do it !!!!)
but I am talking about what I would define as REALLY basic riding here ...not the "finer arts". To me getting "reverse" in a horse is a SAFETY issue, especially out hacking ... and asking a horse to move its rear end round when opening a gate makes it much easier as well as more elegant LOL.
If I can get someone riding my horse (and Taz is certainly no highly trained dressge horse LOL) to turn her (no real accuracy just going in a general direction) with just "looking where you want to go" aids, back her up and turn her rear end in both directions .... all within 10 minutes ....... then it beggars belief that this is not done for all riders first lessons in EVERY riding school in the country. It is a demonstration of the movements you will need to build on and refine in the weeks and months as you progress.
Since Heather you are already in contact with BHS on this topic and not receiving much joy - I wonder what the answer is How can the clients "complain" when they dont know what is "missing".
At what stage I wonder , in the learning plan / sylabus that I presume every instructor must complete, does it mention a rider be made aware of these basic requirements. I would have thought that the learning plan is not entirely client led ...... it can't be for safetys sake as well as any future exams .... clients who do not know what they need to know do not know what they need to learn LOL
Susan , I will look at your threads (and might connect what MW lewssons are) .... oh and the "ask, allow and leave alone" ... how I soooo agree, another point I was explaining to the young sharer !!!!
One thing I have noticed with her is tense hands ... we will really have to work on that as I think she has been used to "taking a contact" but in reality pulling horses head in to "make the shape" as well as all changfes in pace / direction stemming form the hands
...... so I asked her to look at Taz walking out ... look at her low relaxed head position ..... but then ignore that and look at Taz's hind leg action, where her feet were landing and explain the effective movement of that being much more important !!!! I explained that a horse could have a head and neck in "the position" ... but still be trailing the engine behind LOL.
Ah well ...... I know there ARE good instructors out there, but surely more of them need to be less client led and more firm about instilling basic riding skills.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Charlie
Date : 01.08.05 3:20:00 PM
Hi Laura,
in terms of the BHSPTT, the guidleines are very much customer preference and hwo to encourage clients to "want" to carry on riding, indeed we had to learn and disscuss sports pshycology in ref to teaching begginers. It is a very difficult area, as said if riding schools had the resources to offer well schooled ponies, it would be alot easier to teach the young, wthout making them feel useless and having no fun!
I personally would allow kids to have their fun and become confident doing what they enjoy and then when they either choose to carryon in early teens or giveup as many do! Then introduce what "they" would deem theory and most probably a bit borring!
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Laura (Taz)
Date : 01.08.05 3:22:00 PM
Posts crossed charlie
I wholeheatedly take your point Charlie that pupils do not always either listen or follow up what tutor says .... I KNOW this because I was a tutor in the health care sector and an NVQ assessor for many years !!! There were times when someone swore blind they had not heard of something I knew they had not only been told .... they had had written handouts about LOL
However two points I suppose ......
it seems there are such a lot of riders out there that are ignorant of these basic aids ..... and they are soo useful there seems to be no motivation for saying that they have never been taught these movements.
Pehaps if instructers were to refuse to let a rider trot / canter / jump until they could back up / turn horses rear end fro expample (even if it was just at a rudementary level) then the importance of them would be instilled.
I know how difficult it is unless such measures are introduced. I tried to instil in my own daughter the importance of these things ..... but she (like most horse mad kids then teens) was FAR more interested in going fast and jumping.
In order for me to motivate her to apply leg yields ( to move horse into side of the road out hacking LOL) I had to say she could not ride out alone or do jumping unitl she did this consistanly out supervised by me ... oh was I the evil mum LOL ..... but it worked !!!! and in return she got a more responsive horse whos work in the jumping arena also improved .....
longer term therefore she acknowledged that leg yielding had its uses LOL (even though of course I know nothing about teaching / jumping LOL because I dont jump !!!!!!!
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Laura (Taz)
Date : 01.08.05 3:46:00 PM
crossing again LOL
Oh yes , riding should be FUN .... totally agree...
However teaching these things it can be done in a fun and experiential way ...... ( by far the best way to teach almost any subject is to make it as experiential as possible ..... people take far more on board things they feel that what they read !!!!)
We had a fun show day at a livery yard I was at for a few years .... I was organising a "handy pony" class but it was not based on time , it was based in points gained for kind, effective riding through ten obstacles.
The youngsters loved it even when they "failed " and obstacle ..... because althought they lost points if they got exasperated with pony or just abandonded the task , they gained points back if they asked for help and made it through the obstacle.
Afterwards several of them asked me to show them again how to do these things . The following year many of them demonstrated that they had kept up with what they had learnt ... and in fact the course was then too easy for some of them !!!!
Also I am not just talking about children .... I am talking about adults.
N. (sharer) says she has been riding since she was 12 - she is now 25 !!!
Mother of one of the girls mentioned above rather older than 25 LOL ( she is my friend so she wont mind if I LOL)
I agree it is hard to find / keep well schooled ponies, especailly in a riding school environment with less balanced and skillful people on board........ but surely ALL ponies capable of backing up and turning bum ? Most of them will know the words and do it every day from the ground as we do everyday things with them.
Is it really asking toooo much for even just these two things ?
Surely teaching these can be be done in a little time and can lead to something "impressive", highly visible and achievable. These two skills more than almost any other form the basis for sooooo mcuh more.
Subject : re:- Basic riding skills
From : Susan
Date : 01.08.05 11:04:00 PM
The MW is
Mary Wanless
sorry get so used to doing that..
I also understand fully the rider who believes held in nice shape is a great outline..
I have even heard riders shout at their horses, "Head Carriage PLease!!!!!!!"
and expect their horse to go like that and it is in self carriage! let go of the reins and see! is what I would more likely ask