Horse Owners in France

[Admin]

Subject : Horse Owners in France
From : VickiC
Date : 05.07.05 6:02:00 AM

Just to let you know that there is a new horse section to a French Website which is really useful. The address is www.totalfrance.com go to the forum and scroll down the thread topics.

It is very useful especially for things that are not common in the UK for example: some disgusting spidery like flies, where to get small bale hay etc.

Ted - if you are reading this you will see that we made it, you were a catalyst for our move with your phone call with John! We live in Haute Vienne and love it.

Regards

VickiC


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From :
Date : 05.07.05 11:56:00 AM

up


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : john
Date : 05.07.05 12:41:00 AM

hi vicki
were are you we are in correze?
are you comeing to our get together in august at chailais?

hi ted did you get mail? im still haveing pc probs and not sure if it sent
john


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : LJ
Date : 05.07.05 2:33:00 PM

Hi John,

I met you on the 1cheval.com

How you doing?

Vicky C - yes, i have found the TF new forum - its great!


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : john
Date : 05.07.05 3:13:00 PM

hi LJ did you find out any more info on the french fed?


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Ted
Date : 05.07.05 5:10:00 PM

Vicki - glad you are here - drop down to see us sometime . Hay for us is no problem - we had our first cut at the end of May and that's produced enough for our needs for a year !!!

John - yes we received your e-mail . Sorry it's taken a while but we have been a little busy organising trip back to Blairsville for son's graduation . We'll be back on the first of August and start making arrangements for anyone who is coming down to Chalais - The show is around the 11th to the 14th (I think)

Ted .


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : LJ
Date : 06.07.05 10:25:00 AM

Hi John,

Yes, i contacted the FFE (in french may i add).. ha ha.. they replied so i must have made sense to them.

Basically, the person went on about what the FFE do .. which didn't include what i want to do, so they told me that i dont come under their banner of sporting and tourism. ALso, i am not a riding instructor and wont be teaching people to ride.

Also, my qualification and promise of vet references who have used my services was of great interest to them.

They pointed me in the direction of the Chamber of Commerce in my region, but from their point of view, they do not regulate behaviourists. However, as a horse trainer, they gave nothing conclusive.

We should try and contact the current English people out there working in France with horses, however, from some of their websites they have the french galop stages and diplomes..

Ted.. can you shed any light?

I think you will be ok John - best to check with chamber of commerce in your region though..

Let us know and yes, when i am over, definately still interested to come down and visit you!




Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : A
Date : 06.07.05 11:05:00 AM

Considering moving to France permanently with hubbie,horse,donkey,2 cats and 2 dogs!Very scared but exciting-any advice?What parts of France are nice and 'horsey'(and don't mean in meat terms)..


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : LJ
Date : 06.07.05 11:23:00 AM

I am moving to the Mayenne area, it is in the upper part of the Loire. We have found a house and are in the initial stages of buying it.

French property law and regulations are very different to the UK, however, with so many people moving abroad, there is loads of advice out there and so many personal stories from people who have done it.

My advice is to work out what area you want to go to.

We chose the upper part of the Loire as it is 2 hours from St Malo, not packed full of English people already, we found a lovely house with land and also, there seems to be a lot of opportunities for us.

The climate is warmer, but not too dissimilar and also, for our horses, it is quiet, rural.. but for us, we are close to hypermarkets, shops, bars etc.

However, every part of each region is different.. you could choose a region, but find that all the houses you look at aren’t suitable, but then in a different region may be your perfect house.

What struck me was France is a huge place…. Around each corner you find something new and each area is different to the next.

Also, there are loads of houses on the market, when you find your dream home.. there may be an even better one just around the corner.

We have plunged in as we haven’t lived in the area where we are moving to, but many suggest you do this.

Here are some good website links:

www.french-property.co.uk

www.totalfrance.com

www.jbfrenchhouses.co.uk

www.1st-for-french-property.co.uk

www.frenchentree.com

Hope this helps.

PS: I haven't found a place yet to serve horsemeat.. also, by speaking to a few people, it was apparently stopped from being served in restaurants as much now - something to do with a health warning.

Also, Normandy is very horsey.. the horse is the king there.

In the Mayenne - the symbol is a pegasus..


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : A
Date : 06.07.05 3:54:00 PM

Thanks so much for that advice LJ-good luck with your own move, will be back for more advice when i decide where the best place is for us...


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Ted
Date : 06.07.05 7:48:00 PM

There's a sort of idiots guide to living in France - it's called "living and working in France" by David Hampshire .

LJ - somewhere Francesca has a detailed list of "non - recognised" practitioners and also the complete qualification ladder from Galop 1 to a masters degree in Equitation (the whole thing is now under the header BEES). I'll see if she can find it for you .

Ted .


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : LJ
Date : 08.07.05 10:05:00 AM

That would be fantastic Ted!! How is everything going in your region?

A- anything you need just ask. I am not as experienced as Ted, but, i am learning fast.



Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From :
Date : 15.07.05 10:45:00 AM

Is the website working today?


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Laura - France
Date : 20.07.05 5:18:00 PM

Hi All

As this seems to be a general thread I thought I would shed some light on the setting up in business thing as I am a Prelim Cert Holder doing just that at the moment so it may help. Could go on for hours so noted some salient points. Not tryin to put anyone off just letting you know how it can go

FFE regulates clubs and their riders only they are not involved with people who work with difficult horses or starting and there does not appear to be anybody who does.

BHS quals accredited here

Set up in business through Chamber of Commerce and Chamber of Agriculture who regulate this type of activity and will advise on exact requirements for your business.

Costs approx 150 euros for reg number as micro-enterprise

Fixed cost of approx 3000 euros per annum for NI contributions and that's before tax of around 47%. The caluclations vary depending on the type of business you set up.

The NI is payable whether you have any clients or not!

Building business takes time. State the obvious I know but don't rely on it as a major source of income. There is still a lot of scepticism here especially in rural areas and limited financial resources for many. Horses really are seen as a luxury for the rich or just a farm animal in many cases.

There is also a lot of competition generally from and between equestrian centres as they start to latch on to the new demand for 'natural horsemanship'- it depends on your area.

V IMPORTANT - under general French law you cannot impart information or advice which would be deemed as someone 'learning' something in return for reward unless you are qualified as an instructor in the field in which the advice is given. That is if you aren't a BHS or french qualified FFE monitor you cannot impart any information (that includes to owners whose horses you are working on even if you are not giving them lessons directly) and be seen to earn money from it.

The french have a culture of dobbing people in (and in fact can get financially rewarded for it so make sure you get it right). A friend who had set up her horse business in training was dropped in it by her own groom and spent a night in jail and had her whole financial status scutinised for months. This was how she learnt about the imparting info law!

If you are an IH member and have taken some or all the courses and the Prelim cert you can submit a dossier to the FFE and ask them to accredit it against their 'Saviors' which are their new psychology and natural horsemanship stages. You still won't be able to 'impart information' but at least you will have something to present to French clients.

I would say that the French are about 10 years behind the UK in rural areas in respect of their attitude to and use of anything alternative but the demand is obviously rising otherwise the FFE wouldn't have set up its 'Saviors'. The young are lapping it up but as with most thing its the men in the positions of influence and unfortunately the women that hold the interest mainly is these types of approach which is a threat to their 'traditional' ways. This came from my riding instructor(and she's French and been in the business 20+ years) so it is an uphill battle. That goes for with the vets etc too. Apologies to the men who have seen the light out there!

Of course these are generalisations in my experience I have found that the interest is there although people always want someone else to try first. Word of mouth is everything but financial status at the end of the day affects any decision to go ahead especially on a 'luxury'.

Good luck

[Admin]

Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Ted
Date : 20.07.05 9:03:00 PM

Laura , from my experience of people here who have / deal with horses , I would say that many of the things that are seen as a " new way " in the UK , have been around here for the last hundred years or so . So why should there be a demand for something "new" which is in fact common practice ?

If you contact the FFE and ask for a copy of their booklet "Cheval Les Metiers du Club " , which is issued to FFE riding licence holders , you will find a very useful page on contacts for "alternative " horse people .

As to your friend's problem , I think that there must be rather more to the story . In general French people HATE paying anything to the Government and will invoke any way they possibly can of avoiding it . Certainly here I can think of no instances in the last two years where such a case has been reported in the press here .

Setting up a business is no big deal - you get the paperwork required right , pay the fees , take the exam of expertise if that is required , and away you go .

One small point . Getting into the French health system is not difficult . Basically here the Government pays 80% of the charges , and you pay the rest . The other 20% is usually covered by an insurance policy which is not expensive .

However . One of the documents required is a UK birth certificate . The abridged one is not acceptable so you will need the full ones for every family member . The fun is not in dealing with French beurocracy , but with English beurocracy . You will need E106 forms which will be completed by the French C-PAM representative . Getting E106 forms from Newcastle is like trying to steal the Crown Jewels .

Ted .


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Wendy
Date : 20.07.05 11:08:00 PM

Hi Laura, fellow French business owner! LOL

The high social charges are well known to be affecting small business growth in France (even Chirac was going on about it on telly last week) and there is a review being carried out at the moment to see how small businesses can be helped, specifically by reducing or redistributing the social charges somehow. The other thing is that you can end up with extra charges and taxes, taking up to a couple of thousand euros a year, if you have land and you are profiting from it in some way. We had a guy round here looking at our field, all of 10 acres, and he was grilling me and my husband to make sure we weren't making money out of the land in any way. He was suspicious because we have four mares and kept asking whether we would be breeding from them and potentially selling the foals.

"V IMPORTANT - under general French law you cannot impart information or advice which would be deemed as someone 'learning' something in return for reward unless you are qualified as an instructor in the field in which the advice is given." - I wonder if this differs according to the profession you're in though. I've been registered as working as a psychologist here since Jan 2004 and my company is registered with the Chambre de Commerce to carry out "all types of training" yet I've not been asked for any qualifications yet. (Heck, I'd better find my degree certificates - my Mum may still have them in the attic!! LOL)

IMHO the level of bureacracy here is pretty stifling and it's no wonder the economy is so sluggish with 10% unemployment. The health and education systems are terrific though. I've never had or been threatened with as many MRI scans in my life!

It's "Savoir" rather than "Savior". If you ask for a Savior, they'd probably send you to the local priest.... ;o)


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Ted
Date : 21.07.05 9:11:00 PM

Wendy - you do seem to get them don't you ?

Had a word with some friends today who have a similar sized place to yours . They keep donkeys . Every now and then they produce a foal and eventually sell it on . It is not their major occupation and is classed as a hobby . Any profit derived from the sale of the donkeys is declared .

This activity makes absolutely no difference to their taxable status or the status of their land whatsoever . The only way that they could think that it would is if the land is subject to a set aside grant and is then used for any regular activity .

Laura , where did you get the figure of 47% for tax from ? The only way we could get to that figure was by adding together the standard 35% rate with the approximately 12% advance payment against the following years tax that you are required to make .

Ted .


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Wendy
Date : 22.07.05 10:49:00 AM

Ted, he was even concerned about whether we were selling any hay that we produced! Cheek! LOL (We're not BTW)

I do think people's experience of the French bureaucracy differs according to where you live and probably a thousand other things. I'm wondering if this guy came round because it was arable land when we bought it (and subject to this Farmer's social fund charges) and we've turned it into pasture for private use. Guess the guy was coming to check that we really had turned it into a pasture and weren't still growing sunflowers or something off it.

But he did ask directly about whether the mares were "réproducteurs" as that would still mean we were "exploiting" the land. And then he phoned Hervé at work the same afternoon and asked him the same questions to see if he got the same answers. LOL Like the Farmers' Secret Service!


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Wendy
Date : 22.07.05 10:50:00 AM

BTW we've never had to make an advance payment of tax, neither for ourselves or the business.


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Ted
Date : 22.07.05 5:29:00 PM

Wonderful isn't it Wendy ?

Brits setting up in business here now as sole traders are obliged to make an initial payment of tax based on a notional first years profit of 10,000 euros , plus a down payment of around 12 % of this against the following years liability .

Maybe the influx of people calling themselves builders or restauranteurs and then doing a runner has affected the attitude of the Authorities in the Charente .

The up side of the tax business - claim EVERYTHING you can think of to set against your income and it will probably be allowed .

Bottom line is thank heavens for systeme "D" .........

Ted .


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Wendy
Date : 25.07.05 2:28:00 AM

LOL What amazes me is that people are sometimes so unwilling to make use of Systeme D. After all, it was invented by the French to cope with the bureaucracy..... Is it just "foreigners" setting up as sole traders who need to pay the tax up front or do the French have to as well?

As for the tax, they owed US money by the end of the first year after we'd put all our claims in! hahahahaha


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Laura - France
Date : 28.07.05 11:18:00 AM

Thanks guys for the responses. Now things seem even more confusing.

It probably sounds as if I am now contradicting myself but I agree about the attitude to so call new methods. Not just in France have they in fact been around for centuries it just seems that things seem to fade and then come back because people think they have found new ways. I suppose it would have been more correct of me to say that I feel there is a revival of interest, which is spreading in France. I would certainly say this is indicated by the way the press has been reporting on it in more recent years and the FFE's identification of demand.

Work wise fortunately I am already in the system as I have been working here for 3 years in a part-time capacity in another job and this has meant that I have been able to take advantage of various assistance given to those on low income to start up in business. Not least that I can have my first year's cotisations reduced to €1000. I can also continue in my part-time work whilst building up my business and have the cotisations that I pay through that deducted against the fixed cotisations for the micro-enterprise so I am going to start off that way.

I was advised that the tax would be paid at the end of the year as with all other income tax.

As for the 47% tax this was the figure that the CCI gave me when going through examples of the different types of micro-enterprise and how they are taxed.

Everything else certainly seems very easy for setting up and I have found the CCI very helpful.

Thanks for the lead on the FFE booklet - I'll ask for a copy of that.

As for the 'Travaille Noir' certainly most people I know have done their share and it is for most the only way to start business and the French are no less happy to undertake this transaction than anywhere else in the world. For me my concern has always been that as I want to start taking work in on our land I really want to cover myself in case of any accidents - horse or human. Things are always okay while everything is going right but it's when something happens that it can get messy.

Certainly a number of French people have advised me about people being happy to drop people in it. In general it doesn't seem to be the people who want the work done but moreover those who are competing in the same market. I have heard of numerous examples of it. Obviously it depends how much people are exploiting the system I assume as I do know of someone locally having all their assets seized and being sent back to the UK due to unpayment of tax (although it was a big financial set-up). I just don't like feeling I have to look over my shoulder all the time and as I become more busy and more known in the area the more concerned I am. Certainly the SW regional tax office is also so aware of the travaille noir in this area they have employed a further 30 or so tax investigators to specifically investigate the immigrant market.

In respect of our land it has always been registered as agricultural and still is. All we get each year is a form through where we have to decalre what the land is used for. So I phone them up and explain that it doesn't fit into any of the options and that we just keep our horses on it and make hay for our own use and we never hear another word. Maybe it will change once the business is set-up.

The CCI were very helpful in that they advised me to declare all acticities I may carry out in my work as I indicated that we may develop the land to offer 'pension' to horses and she advised that we declare it now. It is fine if we never do it but that each time we change our activity we have to register it at a cost of €150.

As for the giving of information this is something that has come about quite recently (within the last year I think) certainly a number of people already in the horse business at equestrian centres in the area have advised me of it and how they feel about it too. For them the way they have got around it is because there is already a qualified instructor on site even though they do not do the psychology work. As for private individuals they have just had a disclaimer drawn up by their solicitors for clients to sign to say that anything new that they have learnt has been through observation and discussion and that at no time have they been subject to any charge for the information.

For those just starting out you might try the 'Cheque Emploi system. I have used it when working for private individuals on their own land on a short but regular basis when it does not involve riding. It means that it gets you in the system. It's not strictly correct but it at least means that you are covered in case of accident. You just need to agree with your client exactly what you are both going to say you are doing for work as it is strictly for non-professional work. But it does cover pet care and maintenance. It was the ANPE that suggested I could do it that way! It is very easy to set up too.

Have I missed something on the Systeme D. Could you enlighten me?

Maybe I did mean Savior! With all the different experiences people seem to have had maybe only he knows the definitive answer!


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Sara (Belgium)
Date : 28.07.05 12:59:00 AM

Hi Laura, I don't know how quickly you're looking to set up your business but I think it would really benefit you to go to the Salon de Cheval in Paris at the end of the year. There is just so much information available there.

I also think it might help you to talk to Elizabeth de Corbigny, but I have no contact numbers for her. She runs a John Lyons training centre so I wonder how she gets around the law. Perhaps she is a moniteur as well I don't know.

Good luck. My husband is French and some of his cousins have their own businesses and France sounds about as much as a bureaucratic nightmare as Belgium. I laugh when people moan about red tape in Britain - try Belgium.

By the way to the French dwellers do not try to import a second hand British trailer. I bought one off my brother (a farmer) and he towed it over. I didn't realise that here on the continent they have to be registered as vehicles. I've had a massive paper chase but am near the end now but Rice told me they knew of cases in France and Spain where people ended up just shipping the trailer back to the UK because they couldn't get it registered.


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Wendy
Date : 04.08.05 10:57:00 AM

Laura, Systeme D = Systeme Demairde/Debrouillarde (take your pick) - it means finding a way through or around the System. Not really travaille noir - more like the thing you're describing with working at an established equestrian centre where you find a way to get through the red tape. For example, I was talking recently to someone who trims horses for a living (part-time) but, for obvious reasons, does not want to be registered as a farrier. Their way through the system has been to find a particular 'activity code' that approximates to what they do - there isn't a code for barefoot trimmers but she found something that would allow her to trim within the system without being registered as a farrier, which she isn't and would never want to be anyway. She's within the system so not working on the black market. The French bureacratic system is designed for steady-state activity that is within the boundaries of what is already known and established (that's the opinion of my French hubby anyway). New, entrepreneurial start-ups sometimes have to find an imaginative way into the system.

Are you going to the Chalais Horse Show meet-up on the 13th? If so, I will be there with my OH and we can swap notes.


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : ERArab
Date : 04.08.05 11:08:00 AM

Hi everyone,

We have a house in Vernet les bains in the eastern Pyrenees.

We don't live there full time but hop to one day.

Its so so beautiful......hmmmmmmm....wanders off deraming.......


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Ted
Date : 04.08.05 8:55:00 PM

Sara - I hate to say it , but registering a Brit vehicle or trailer in France is simplicity itself .

Under French Law any trailer over 2 tonnes has to have it's own "Carte Gris" and so it's own number plate .

All you need to do is go to the Prefecture with the vehicle registration or details and a certificate of European Compliance , if neccessary a certificate rather like the UK MOT , pay over the fee and collect the new document .

The only people I've heard of who will not supply an EU certificate are Rice - so the problems over their trailers are down to them - Ifor Williams are no problem , nor are any of the car manufacturers .
The latest thing here is for people to buy very cheap LHD Discoveries etc in the UK , bring them over here , and then re register them on French plates .

Ted .


Subject : re:- Horse Owners in France
From : Lucy
Date : 04.08.05 9:38:00 PM

The tax percentages that don't tally is down to your activity. The 47% the CCI gave your Laura is the figure they give for calculating your taxable income when you function as a microentreprise in some domains. They deduct 47% from your sales figure to work out what they consider to be income. For 'services' companies (I am one and still as a micro though that may not last too long!) the % is lower because you don't include as much 'equipment' to run your company so you are considered to have less 'charges'. It's a bit simplistic but that's the whole point of the microentreprise.

[ninarob]

Hi guys,

Whereabouts is the horse show on the 13th? I'd very much like to come down and put faces to all these familiar names that I see on this and the totalfrance.com forum.

Nina

[Lucy]

Thank you admin!

[marianne]

Nina, anyone in France who's been on the DG or MF is very welcome in Chalais on 13th August (SW France) ... where are you?

[ninarob]

Chateaneuf La Foret in the Haute Vienne, about 10 mins from the Correze/Haute Vienne border. Are you all meeting in a specific place at the show?

[marianne]

Timetable of events on the 13th are (I believe ...):

9am - children jumping event

10am - international veteran jumping (over 45 - that's the riders not the horses :-) )

11am - international jumping

3pm - more veteran jumping

4.30pm - more international jumping

9pm - puissance

[more details available on www.ffecompet.com/fonc/officiel_bo/internat/200516002.pdf pages 10, 11 and 12]

I'm hoping to get there around 10am (which means I should be there by 11!). It's a shame the puissance is so late as I'd have loved to see it but getting home will be hard ...

It's been suggested we meet at the food/wine tent and if you've got any IH clothing/baseball caps that might be helpful :-) otherwise listen out for anyone speaking English!

[marianne]

Timetable of events on the 13th are (I believe ...):

9am - children jumping event

10am - international veteran jumping (over 45 - that's the riders not the horses :-) )

11am - international jumping

3pm - more veteran jumping

4.30pm - more international jumping

9pm - puissance

[more details available on www.ffecompet.com/fonc/officiel_bo/internat/200516002.pdf pages 10, 11 and 12]

I'm hoping to get there around 10am (which means I should be there by 11!). It's a shame the puissance is so late as I'd have loved to see it but getting home will be hard ...

It's been suggested we meet at the food/wine tent and if you've got any IH clothing/baseball caps that might be helpful :-) otherwise listen out for anyone speaking English!

[gillmcg]

Very sad I can't be there with you - still trying to sell our house in Sussex. Maybe next year! Raise a glass or two for me........hope you all have a great day and manage to meet up.

[ted]

We'll be there sometime around eleven , complete with ice , beer and other essentials .

I don't know where they are holding the puissance this year - last year it was in the grounds of the Chateau which overlooks the town and was some spectacle .

[John]

8-)look forward to meeting you all there.
anybody else comeing???
john.

[ted]

If you are thinking of coming - do . Today the roads around us were full of large team lorries , small lorries and trailers .

I'm taking Ellie there tomorrow morning to watch the first horseball games ( got to be an absolute looney to play horseball ) and then in the afternoon to watch some of the jumping . I think an IH member is jumping both tomorrow and Saturday .

Ted .