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Post by wilgin on Dec 19, 2005 23:49:45 GMT 1
Hello,
I am a new poster to this list, and I hope someone can help. I have read Kelly's books, and tried her methods, but my horses seem to not be responding (I blame myself for that!).
I have a mare and gelding, that I have had for 2 months. One is a rescue. The first couple weeks, they were so happy and loving... it was a dream come true, as these are the first horses I have owned outright, and they are here at my house.
The last 3-4 weeks they have become quite nasty with me. No respect, and will walk right over me. They used to come to me in the field, and now they completely ignore me, and I get grumpy faces (ears pinned back etc.). They are the same in stalls. When I walk by, the ears go back and they reach out to nip. When I groom, they both try to bite (even with very short gentle sessons), and the "grumpy" face stays the whole time. I have tried gentle stroking on the face and neck, and they both HATE it, and nothing but nasty in return. They weren't this way when I got them,. and I fear I have somehow ruined them. The gelding is quite bossy with mare in the field, but they get along for the most part.
It is winter here, and there is snow and ice on the ground. I can't do any lunging etc :-(
The worst part is, when neighbors and friends come by, the horses are pleasant with them!
How can I correct this terrible behavior? What do I do when they make ugly faces and nip?
All I do is cry, because I love them so much, and I can't spend "happy" time with them, as they seem to be telling me to stay away!! :-(
Please help!
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Post by kas on Dec 20, 2005 0:22:03 GMT 1
Tell us a bit more about their routine. In particular if it's changed since you got them, or in the last few weeks. How long are they turned out for? Is there grass or are you feeding hay? What sort of exercise do they get? What are they fed - how much hay do you give them during the period they are in?
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anon
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,014
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Post by anon on Dec 20, 2005 0:31:59 GMT 1
Go and read "perfect manners" and "perfect partners" - and become the leaer of the herd - not a subordinate member
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Post by wilgin on Dec 20, 2005 1:34:36 GMT 1
They are out 24/7 and have access to their stalls at all times. They get hay 3 times a day, and a small amount of grain for dinner. Right now they are getting no excersize because of the snow and ice on the ground. They were on grass only till winter came. BOth horses also had rainrot when they first came, and were treated over a week, till it was gone. Perhaps that when they started getting annoyed with me?
I have read both of Kelly's books, and have been trying her methods, but I don't know if I am doing things right, or if what responses I get are correct. Any little plus I may see, I give a verbal reward and a pat.
I have stopped giving treats by hand a few weeks ago, as I felt that could of contributed to the nipping. Also the gelding got his shoes removed last week, and his feet were a bit sore for awhile. Maybe they associate me with painful experiences only? I have ridden my mare 4-5 times when I first got her, and she is a pleasant ride (thank goodness!!).
I do stand firm and try to be a "leader", but it seems the more I try, the more things go down hill.
WHen I worked at a equestrian center 15 yrs ago, I never had problems with any horses. COuld I be spending too m,uch time with mine, and nitpicking every little thing s a negative? Should I leave them alone totally for a few days (of course still feed etc)?
Thanks!!
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Nikki Italy
Olympic Poster
"To the Greeks, he was a god of beauty, half wild, half tame."
Posts: 628
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Post by Nikki Italy on Dec 20, 2005 6:41:49 GMT 1
Hi Wilgin.... where abouts do you live? You mention 'grain'... is this because you can't find any 'commercial' horse feed? Sometimes 'grain' (in my experience) can upset their balance, particuarly if it's winter and they are not getting enough exercise to warrant it. Maybe a 'calmer' food might help. Are you giving them hay and leaving them to it? Or are you hanging around watching them eat, perhaps too close, making them think that you are then going to take it away? I find that grazing and eating horses should be left well alone. They could think you were a threat. I know it's sad when horses change their personalities, but it is so often something we are giving out to them. I know you've read Kelly's books... but putting all that information into practise, takes practise and after all, to err is only human! So go back to Perfect Manners for example and just go one step at a time. Short sessions are more benifical that long ones, and to repeat until it comes right for you both,... your horse and you. Each horse is different, and you may find that each one responds slightly differently than the other. Personally giving snacks by hand is a bad idea, and I know you've stopped that.... when you do these exercises will you be taking them away from each other? I think it's best if you do, then they don't get distracted and play off one another. Your enthusiasm and happiness at the slightest achievement will be a huge boost to your horse, as they will pick up on it and feel encouraged. Rough handling and anger, in your voice or just your body, will only serve to confuse as after, all you are only trying to speak THEIR language, not the other way round! The very best of luck, and don't be demoralised, and please let us know how you get on.
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Post by kas on Dec 20, 2005 9:01:12 GMT 1
I keep thinking I'd like to see you and your horses together. Where are you? Maybe someone from here could drop by just to give you an outside opinion. Sometimes with new horses you do get a transition period where things all seem to be going pear-shaped, but if you're consistent with the right handling it should pass. By the way, none of my horses are that keen on gentle stroking, particularly round their faces. They appreciate a good hard scratching more. Have you found your horses scratchy places?
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maislow
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,815
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Post by maislow on Dec 20, 2005 9:33:30 GMT 1
I would guess by the spelling and words such as 'grain & rainrot' that Op is possibly in the states (just a guess)
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Post by Val (Toons&co) on Dec 20, 2005 9:55:58 GMT 1
Hi Wilgin,
First of all, I don't think your horses hate you at all, they just haven't had time to bond with you yet and seem not to know exactly where you fit in their environment. It is important that you give each of them some time - if you can't do ground work, just groom them - individually - to get them to know you.
You were right in stopping hand-feeding treats. Most horses will bully you into giving them treats if they don't 'come' fast enough and undoing this process seems rather long (if you've only stopped a few weeks ago, they might still be trying it on) - I know because my previous yard owner used to give a carrot every time he turned the horses out and my youngster had become very nippy. Over a year later, he still regularly 'looks' in people's pockets!
When I bought my mare Jaz, she was so perfectly behaved: she would not have dared to put a foot wrong. It didn't take her long to realise she wasn't going to be mistreated for 'expressing her opinions' and she now does pull faces when I bother her. Also, she has metabolic problems which make her more sensitive and I have to be careful when I groom her as she gets ticklish and will let me know in no uncertain terms.
Another possible cause could be the lack of grazing. Mine all get a bit grumpy in February and very moody in March when they KNOW the grass is growing but they can't access it. How much hay are you giving? If it's only one slice and there isn't any grass left, it may not be enough?
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Post by gem on Dec 20, 2005 10:18:15 GMT 1
Hello I am quite sure that your horses don't hate you.
Something that I was told in a Q and A session at I think Mark Rashid (could be wrong) session is that when you take the feed if the horse is pulling faces at you ie ears back they are in effect sending you away so don't give them the feed you go away as they have requested but you take the feed with you. My mare was horrid and I tried lots of other methods when I first bought her and they didn't work. It took her two days of this advance and retreat with feed to get her to understand that if she tells me to go away at feed time I will but the feed comes to. She will now step back and wait until i've placed the feed on the ground.
Another thing I was told is not to pat the horse, it isnt natural and horses dont always understand it, to stroke is much better. Try and find their special itchy spots on the neck and spend a short time scratching it for them.
Keep trying and im sure you'll get there!!
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Smudge not logged in
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Post by Smudge not logged in on Dec 20, 2005 12:04:46 GMT 1
I am absolutely NO expert - but I would increase the handling of these two if they were mine. If you back off or get nervous when they warn you off you are effectively rewarding that behaviour - which, in itself will encourage more of it. I have a mare who really dislikes grooming and being touched and her personal space being invaded - but thats tough because it has to be done! When I go to touch her and her ears go back I ignore it and continue to do it - she then usually relents and puts up with it If we are grooming and her ears are back, I ignore it. And if she goes to nip I tell her NO and push her face away. I would get into the habit of a good daily grooming, ignoring all face pulling and stropping. I also agree that patting can be quite strange to some horses - the above mare of mine is a chestnut and has very sensitive skin, so I only use the softest brushes and a gentle scratch - not a pat. I don't think they hate you, I just think they have learned how to work you!
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Post by mellymoo on Dec 20, 2005 15:06:22 GMT 1
Hi wilgin, welcome to the board, and do not mind anon (always far too abrupt with people). It takes time to bond with horses, and they will have to get to know you. They have probably realised that you are not going to hurt them or subdue them with violence, so they feel able to express their true feelings more. I would get an RA or other IH person out to see you as soon as you can, before you get hurt or become fearful. Good luck!
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Caroline
Grand Prix Poster
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 2,277
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Post by Caroline on Dec 20, 2005 23:53:05 GMT 1
Two months is very early in your relationship. I wouldn't get upset just yet.. There has been some great advice here... * Dont hand feed * Dont get bullied at feed time. I find that horses get very emotional about food and it is the worst time to negotiate. Tis best to establish a safe and simple procedure and stick to it without getting into debates as to where in the field or stable there horse will eat. * Dont pat. This is a predator thing and can offend horses. * A lot of horses are head shy - so stroking the neck can be better. Find nice spots and work out how each horse likes to be touched. * Get an RA in if you can. There could be something wrong with your relationship that only a third party will spot. Horses dont hate. That's a very human emotion. Horses think about food and reproduction mainly. Hate doesn't figure in either of those biological imperatives! At this time of year, food is a big issue for horses. Grass is scarce and, if they are dependant on you dishing out hay and feeds, they are going to get stressy and anxious about any changes to your routine. If practical, you may find you can lessen this effect by putting large round bales in the field and letting the horses eat at their own rate. We found this made our horses a lot happier. They are still pretty obsessed with their feed buckets though! You mention one is a rescue. What do you know of his/her background? Rescue can mean a lot of things...from voluntary rehoming to rehabilitation of abuse victims. You mention that you want to spend happy time with them. Have you tried just sitting out in the field with them whilst they graze? You can't rush emotional intimacy with a horse. Horses are used to making their minds up about their fellow herd members over periods of hours every day. Let them get to know you in a situation where you arent trying to *do* anything with them and dont want anything from them. This will also give you a chance to really listen to them and hear what it is that they are trying to tell you. Have faith...tis early days.. Caroline
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Post by wilgin on Dec 21, 2005 2:33:06 GMT 1
Hi everyone!
First... yes, I am in the states :-) I was so inspired by Kelly's books, and saw this site on the back cover.
I truly appreciate everyones insight and advice!!! I am reading things that could make a difference (like NOT bothering them when they eat). And it makes total since that they could be annoyed without the grass, and the cold windy days, and snow etc. I would be annoyed too. I do make sure they ALWAYS have hay available (I check 3 times a day)... I think this is very important. They also only get a handful of feed (it's a Purina complete feed) in their buckets, as a treat, at dinner time. I know this is not a great idea, but it is helping them get comfortable with being in a stall, and I can bring them in the aisle and groom them etc. Should I stop with the feed? This seems to be when they are happiest with me :-)
I have been trying to find a "happy" spot on these guys, and have had no luck. I've tried rubbing, scratching, patting on MANY different areas, and they BOTH give me a look of "please stop, that annoys me.. nip!". So when they do something good, and I say "good boy or girl" should I not rub or scratch them, since they don't like it? Should the rub/scratch be quick ( a few seconds only)?
Thanks again everyone for taking the time to help us. I feel much more confident with the wonderful advice given, and not so alone :-)
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Nikki Italy
Olympic Poster
"To the Greeks, he was a god of beauty, half wild, half tame."
Posts: 628
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Post by Nikki Italy on Dec 21, 2005 6:59:07 GMT 1
Hi Wilgin, you've had great advice here... just a thought, how cold is it with you? Where I live it's minus - 10 degrees this morning, and normally anywhere between minus -6-8 degrees. My 4 horses get ad lib hay and 3kgs of hard feed per day each....this just about keeps the weight on and gives them that inner-central heating I think they need at this time of year. Your 1 handful of Purina mix in the evenings may not be enough to keep them happy if it's really cold, it's just a thought! For finding that 'happy spot', I would keep grooming, and one day you'll notice an ear, or a puckered top lip (I love that!) that will tell you that 'that's the place'!!!!
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BuckSkinBabe
Elementary Poster
Resident Tack Store Employee, ask me anything, I just might have the answer.
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Post by BuckSkinBabe on Dec 21, 2005 8:57:25 GMT 1
Hi Wilgin, I know all about snow and ice so my horses are having the easy life right now too. ;D Anyway you said that one of these horses was a rescue, does that mean that the horse has been starved? If so let me tell you about my horse Buddy. When I bought Buddy he needed to gain about 200 pounds. He was way too skinny and looked much older than an 8 years old because his hip bones were sticking out. And his previous owner thought he was healthy! So I took him home and fattened him up. He filled out nicely, but I noticed the stronger he got the nastier he got. Reason: He was protecting his food from me and from my mare. He did the same thing that your horses do. When I came near he would pin back his ears and threaten to bite. I guess I can't blame him for he will probably have starvation haunting the back of his mind forever. I tried so many different things to get respect from him. I tried backing off, yelling, slaping when he tried to bite, pushing him away, making my self look big and sending him away, and nothing seemed to work. So one day I was reading about clicker training and it seemed like a lot of fun so I tried it not expecting to break him of anything, just hoping to have fun playing with him. HE LOVED IT! I have never seen him pay attention to me like he did with a clicker and we really bonded. Some people do not like giving food as a reward but if your horse will bend over backwards for you to get it, why not use it? We both got our way with clicker training. I got him to do what I wanted him to do and he got want he wanted out of it. I also noticed quite a turn around in his overall attitude too. He was happy to see me again and enjoyed being petted and gave me respect. He does still get a little nasty around his food, but I have found that if I leave him alone he is pretty happy and then pretty social to me after he is finished. Now I know you don't like feeding in hand so you are probably thinking clicker training is not for you. But you don't have to feed the horse out of your hand. My horse has never gotten nasty with hand feeding, but sometimes I just don't want to deal with his slober. (He likes to lick) What I do sometimes is put some corn in a bucket or the feed scoop and when I click him for doing what I want I let him nibble a little out of the bucket or the scoop. After the horse has mastered a behavior you will not have to treat for every click and you can change it up a bit by having every 3 or 4 clicks get a treat.Here is a great site that shows how to get started with clicker training. www.theclickercenter.com Even if you use this advice or not just don't dispare for your horses do love you they just don't trust you yet. But they will, I am sure of it.
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