Bucking and stamping if schooled

[missT fied]

My friend has a mare she is trying to school. This horse is 11 years old and has not been ridden for about 3 years. Prior to this she has been used for hacking and fun rides although she has had basic schooling at the age of 5 years. When she was schooled originally she was always v fwd going and was introduced to lateral work to teach her not to run away from the leg. This was successful at the time and the mare went on to do some nice work in the school. She was then used mainly for hacking for the next 3 years until the owner had a miscarriage followed by twins!
Consequently the mare was turned away and then bred a foal April this year. She has been brought back into work slowly, starting with lungeing and then ridden work in the school and hacking out.
My friend wants her for her daughter who is a good rider and would like to compete on her as the mare has an exceptional jump and is very bold. The jumping is no problem as the mare is very scopey and confident the problem is on the flat. She just wants to go. If you trot and return to walk she keeps jogging, if you canter and return to trot then she wants to canter. This is with no jumps in the school. She seems to run from the leg and if you hold her back she stamps her front legs and then goes into rocking horse mode followed by energetic bucks which look very unseating. She also shakes her head in an attempt to snatch the reins.
She is brilliant hacking out and much calmer although better in front than behind. Again she is still fwd going and will buck if held back.
Their instructor is saying to let her go back to the owner as it will take too long to correct. She thinks the mare has had her own way for too long and is throwing strops when she has to do as she is told. She agrees that the mare has great potential and would be really amazing if they could get her going properly as she has super paces and is so talented and brilliant over fences.
Has anybody had experience with a horse like this before and if so how did they overcome it (if they did manage to)?
Any suggestions?
This horse is so easy to manage off the ground and on hacks. It just seems to be when schooling so we can't understand it.
The man who broke her in didn't school at all, he tended to have them with a high short head carriage which caused over development of the brachiocephalicus (SP) which is the muscle on the underside of the neck. This has been overcome to a certain extent when the owner had her before all the time off.
Any advice greatly appeciated.

[Casper]

Sounds to me like what you need to do with this horse is direct her energy. She obviously wants/needs to move - which is fine, let her move but in a way in which your friend wants. Provided the bucking is not happening because of anything physically wrong (am assuming everything been checked, including nothing going on following having the foal) this too can be a symptom of too much energy which if held back has to go somewhere - hence the bucking.

So, if the horse is supposed to be trotting and is getting stronger and stronger, put her on a circle and keep her there until the pace of the trot gets to where your friend wants it to be. Then go large again. If the horse starts to rush do the same thing, until she comes to realise what is required of her. The same in canter too.

Another important question - will this horse rein back softly? Often horses can have a "brace" in them which shows itself initially in halt or rein back. If you haven't got halt and rein back then to quote Mark Rashid you haven't got any other paces either. The key to this horse is to help her to find softness, recognise when she is offering softness (no matter how miniscule or swift this offering may be) and give to her when she does.

To me she sounds like she is a lovely horse with huge potential. I am sure your friend will get through this. Maybe a change of instructor to someone more IH friendly might be an idea too? Sorry if this waffles on, hope it helps.

[PD]

So the situation where the horse objects is when you ask it to work properly through its back, engaging its hind quarters?? I've seen this a few times with middle aged thoroughbreds and in each case the problem has been pain in both front feet. The engagement makes the horse take more weight on its front feet = more painful, and the horses I've seen seem to think the only way to tell the rider they're in pain is to bunny hop, buck or evade going on the bit in the first place.

If this sounds familiar take a jolly good look at the front feet. Are they a pair? Are they in normal shoes or remedial ones? Are they well balanced? Are they long in the toe, with the heels forward of the rear most part of the frogs?

If any of these answers are yes, you're probably looking at a horse with early navicular problems...I might be wrong, but your scenario sounds very familiar to me.

[missT fied]

Thanks for comments. PD her feet are nice round regular shaped and as she is happy to work through from behind when out hacking I can't think that this is the problem in her case. It seems to be more of a strop in that she wants to go on her terms. When hacking out she is still fwd going but not as stroppy, it seems she objects to the discipline of being schooled. It gets worse if you go up a pace and then expect her to work again in the pace below as it seems to light her up.
She is lovely natured and so easy to do off the floor, when ridden she shortens her neck and will shake her head from side to side in what seems to be temper. I have eaven known her to squeal when alittle more is asked of her.
I had her for a couple of months after she'd been broken in and she tended to run away from the leg. The chap who'd broken her in tended to just point and whizz with her. Unfortunately, I think he had her for too long (3 months approx) and she learnt to run away from the leg although it is partially due to her nature I think.
I really don't know what to advise them to do on this one. I don't have the time to have her here and they don't want to fork out loads of money to have her schooled as she is not theirs and just on loan to them. The thing is that she is a lovely mare and has such untapped talen that I am frustrated as I'd like them to persevere with her and not give in so soon. They only had her mid October and have only been able to ride her 2-3 times a week due to the girl being at school and no daylight.
I am interested in Caspers comments as I think you may be onto something there. I have ordered Mark Rashid's books from Amazon in the hope that this may give us a clue as to what can be done. I am tempted to long rein and work laterally and on rein back as you suggested. Then take it further under saddle.
In the field she is bottom of the pecking order and always has been. She is not spooky, just excitable and enthusiastic wanting to go faster all the time.

[Louise C]

I've never used a Passoa, but maybe using one of those would help - she could then be worked correctly from the ground in the school and learn to use herself without risk for the rider - could she be lunged in it more often? My boy is rather forward, but the more you ride him the better he is, and the circling definately works for most horses, although I did have one friend whose pony LOVED going round in circles and got really excited!

Mark's books are amazing anyway, you will get a lot out of them:-)

Good luck - surely most of these "amazing" horses have quirks that have to be worked through!

[annahindley]

PD - surely engagement makes the horse take less weight on the front feet? Coming off the forehand and lightening. Or have I misunderstood what you wrote?

[annahindley]

Sorry, meant to say that the overdeveloped brachiocephalacus can be associated with atlas issues as if the atlas is fixed they adopt false collection not genuine - which can as you say be improved with good schooling - but may need treatment too. Also, after having three pregnancies, this horse will have been exposed to lots of relaxin - a hormone that soften ligaments. Also, carrying and delivering twins will be a huge stress on her spine. The birth itself possibly disrupted her pelvis. She does sound like a good candidate for back pain when you look at her history.
I realise she is only a problem when schooling, but schooling is much more demanding than hacking, and it is the added engagement she may struggle with, especially if she cannot flex at the pelvis or poll.
Good luck

[PD]

Anna, I stand corrected, you're right and massively more educated than me, thanks for putting me straight. It just seems to me that horse's with front feet problems become worse when you ask them to work through properly, fine out hacking etc....why is that then?

"Also, carrying and delivering twins will be a huge stress on her spine."

I think it was the owner who had the pregnancies wasn't it? ;o)

If the feet look good, do investigate other body pain thoroughly, then I like the sound of following the Mark Rashid teachings...this will be the next thing I investigate, and do courses on, I hear nothing but marvellous reports of his work.

Good luck.

[missT fied]

Yes, it is the owner who had twins a year after having a miscarriage, not the horse - sorry if I confused anyone .
The people who have her on loan have decided to give up with her. As I said, this is after having her 7 weeks and riding her approximately 15 -20 times. After all she is not their horse and although they were willing to work with her as they could see the potential they haven't the time and the knowledge to pursue this they are saying. It is my sister's mare and as I have children myself nd a collection of horses and ponies I don't have the time (or the confidence) any more to get on her. Before having children I would have tackled the problem and ridden her regularly but I haven't the same passion for it anymore.
However, I do want to help as I don't really want to see my sister disappointed and having to have the horse just turned in her field again doing nothing.
The mare is out of an Arab/Welsh dam and her grandsire is th showjumper Dallas (he's no longer alive). She is brilliant on the lunge, in long reins and being lunged with a pessoa or a chambon. When I had her here about 6 -7 years ago, although she was inclined to be very fwd foing and fizzy she was schoolable, It seems that now she won't accept the leg at all. She has had only one foal which was born April this year and was weaned towards the end of October when these people took the mare on. Prior to them taking her I had started her lunging again and she seemed the same as ever she was.
I was wondering whether to try a treeless saddle one her. Her saddle is made to measure for her, hasn't been used on any other horses and still fits her well. She is ridden in a snaffle and is no problem to stop or hold onto other than the exposive energy she has. She is kept out at present, rugged up and is looking very well. She is fed hay (I don't know if they give her any other feed but if they do it would certainly be non-heating).
I can usually sort problems myself but I must admit that this one has me foxed. The problem now is time really as they people who are loaning her are the sort to stick to their decisions and they have decided not to continue. I am the other sort who doesn't like to give in and will try to find a solution - especially with one as talented and nice in every other way as this one is. She is a real poppet. My sister doesn't know wht they are thinking yet as they told me not to worry her before Christmas. It is really frustrating.

[annahindley]

Oh, in that case the owner probably needs a chiropractor! Thought twins was a bit unusual, but it does happen!
Sorry PD, not sure why this would happen - perhaps it is just more noticable that the front end isn't right when you try and get better engagement. Plodding along on a hack you maybe have less awareness of the horse?
She has had one foal though, right? She could still have injured herself out in the field or during delivery. Perhaps she has a sore rib that the saddle sits on - not that the saddle doesn't fit as such, but that it is just sore? Has anyone checked her spine? If she is such a kind mare, it seems at odds that she gets angry when ridden. Perhaps she has a headache?!? A couple of your comments make me desperate to check this mare's neck before putting it down to bad temper or defiance.

[jinks]

7 weeks with previous loaner is not very long, how long has your fried had her ?
may take a while to get her used to work again, has she tried doing some ground work with her, or has she just got her and tried to school her, she has not done this for a while maybe she needs some more time to get used to things, and get a bond with your friend

[tammy68]

I agree Jinks....but unfortunately my friend has made her mind up and when she does she usually doesn't change it....me however, I am always open to suggestions and prefer to look for a way round things rather than walking away.....that's why I posted here.
Sadly, I haven't the time or space to have her here and persevere with her here, although, if she does end up going to someone locally who has more time, determination and less of e defeatist attitude then I am happy to help all I can.

[nimrod]

mhy mare can be like this. she takes 40 minutes to warm up and can be stroppy and either refuse to move forward or run away from the leg. patience, lots of circles if she runs off and be very firm when doesn't move forward. i can't do more than 20 mins of schooling if i haven't schooled in a while as her muscles get tired. horse ideally needs 6 days a week of gentle work for 4 weeks before a noticiabe improvement may be seen - muscle takes a long time to build.

[Lynn]

You mentioned a previous owner's way of riding had lead to her over developing brachiocephalic muscles, if this is still the case when she is asked to go into a contact these muscles can act like a broom handle under her throat which she will not be able to lift over or relieve, leading to horses that have to show/relieve their discomfort by bucking etc. Unless these muscles are allowed to reduce by suitable long, low work such a horse can not improve it's work when in a schooling situation.
If she is in this position she has no choice but to object as she physically is unable to comply with the request to bring herself into what people would describe as a "collected" shape or a more normal outline for schooling. Having just re-schooled a Trakhener with these over developed muscles and working with ex-racehorses often with similar physical issues they can find schooling almost impossible physically but will hack well as they are working in a more relaxed shape in straight lines and not usually being asked to do things in a more collected shape. Just an observation, hope it makes sense.