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Post by wildrover on Dec 15, 2005 20:12:07 GMT 1
I am quoting wildrover here and could not have put it better myself! Just had to copy that bit out again ........... sounds good you see!! ;D
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Post by Mariaana on Dec 15, 2005 20:23:07 GMT 1
Well, I told you I was mad then. In those days, safety was not so much of an issue, we just had to have fun with the horses. And so we did. Today, I would not even dream of doing anything like that!
We also had a game with the horses, where you need to vault on them from the ground (no saddle), do round the world, lie flat on their bum and slide down over the tail, then crawl under the horse to the other side, and the horses loved it. They even lifted their legs so we could get round quicker. Well nowadays this would be deemed utterly dangerous and not allowed, but hey, we really really enjoyed being with the horses.
I probably won't stop going under the belly if I get injured - I haven't stopped riding although I've fallen off loads of times, got injured etc. I've been injured when a horse kicked me, but I still have horses and have to handle their backsides as well... But I know I am insane, and happy with it.
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Post by Yann on Dec 15, 2005 20:52:23 GMT 1
The same way you teach your horse to ignore their flight instinct in all sorts of other situations, by good handling and training, being a consistent and reliable leader they can look to, and desensitising them to scary things where necessary. A well trained horse should stand like a rock and allow the handler to touch it all over, shake and rustle things round it and even throw light objects like lead ropes over it without reacting.
Nobody here has advocated going under a horse as a good idea, but a certain individual here has slated people who say they have. If you describe a certain action as 'insane' or ' stupid stupid STUPID', then you can't but infer that anyone carrying out this action is making a serious error of judgement, or I don't understand plain english. I don't appreciate someone who has absolutely no idea about me or my horses making that kind of call.
Wildrover, the reason I asked whether you had a horse of your own was that your statements suggested that you might not be aware of just how good a relationship and level of trust it is actually possible to have with a horse.
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laura
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Post by laura on Dec 15, 2005 21:55:30 GMT 1
ah well Yann you got in before me ;D but I will still reiterate....... EVERYTHING we do with horses has worked at negating their flight instinct otherwise we could not even touch them never mind ride them ...... some of us just take it a bit further than most. So where do you draw the line and say that you have done enough ?? I certainly have not yet !!!! Whilst there are variations in horse "personality" ( just as in humans) and some will always remain "flighty".... with regular and thought out work it is possible to change a horse afraid of everything .... to one like this... i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/canIbeatent.jpgshe can be covered completely and be calm ..... surely this is a claustrophobic animals worst nightmare !!!!!!!!!! i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/emwdemo130805-00064.jpgloud bangs ,,,,, another sure spook for a horse ...... yet Taz not only does not jump she causes the bangs by bursting the balloons ..... and Ben stands there quite unaffected i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/EMWDemo130805-00006.jpgTaz had driven through that flappy rope curtain in the backgound, over a tarpaulin, though a gazebo, over a little bridge ........... i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/EMWDemo130805-00070.jpgtaking a small passenger over the bridge with sides added. Ok the point is not to "show off" ...... the point is that YES horses can overcome their natural instinct and if you have developed a relationship where you are the herd (passive) leader then the horse will trust you and be far less likely to sppok when faced with horse eating monsters ;D I apologise in advance for putting the thread in wide .... I STILL cant get the photos reduced !!!!!!!!!!! edited to put url in instead ... ames it easier to read ( I WILL get the hang of this some day I wonder if lying down in a field with ones horse might also be seen as dangerous? .... I consider it a privelege and the highest degree of mutual trust that can be demonstrated...
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natalia
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Post by natalia on Dec 15, 2005 22:43:55 GMT 1
I wouldn't recomend going uder a tied up horse, however safe, there could be that one fly that makes them fly kick and hey presto, thats your head. To me the problem would be not what happens if you go under the horse, but what if by accident, your horse kicked you, you fell and the horse inevitably panicked. worse case senerio ok but highly possible. Just as I wouldn't lie down in the field with my horse if there were others in the field, its not always your horse thats the danger, but often the others in the herd. Yes, when I was young i used to do all sorts, ride with no tack, hat etc, climb all over my pony and do other silly things. But my mum never caught me and the risk wasn't really in my head. I don't think you realise how dangerous handling horses can be until you are badly injured or see a good friend injured by doing something stupid. My relationship with my horse is about mutal respect, I don't climb all over him, he won't barge all over me. You can desensitise as much as you like but at the end of the day your dealing with a flight animal and I don't think you should forget that.
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Post by wildrover on Dec 15, 2005 23:06:20 GMT 1
But Yann - I think I can understand the bond that can be developed between horse and human.
This issue is not about trust - this is about a horse spooking, spinning, lifting a leg to scratch when someone is underneath them. Every horse can and will spook - and as Lucitania said - they wont wait till someone has gotten out from under before spooking.
Laura - lovely horse. Well done to you and the obvious bond you have with him. Would also fully agree, working with the horse as such will make him less likely to spook at such horse eating monsters. Key words 'less likely' .... even Taz will not be immune to spooking - my point remains, if it happens when someone is underneath him that could be potentially fatal.
Like Natalia says - the horse is a flight animal and that should not be forgotten.
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Post by Yann on Dec 15, 2005 23:09:01 GMT 1
Nobody has suggested it was being.
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Post by wildrover on Dec 15, 2005 23:10:13 GMT 1
Good!
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Post by jor on Dec 15, 2005 23:17:01 GMT 1
Am I the only one feeling irritated?
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Post by wildrover on Dec 15, 2005 23:18:29 GMT 1
No
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laura
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Post by laura on Dec 15, 2005 23:26:51 GMT 1
but natalia I am not young ............ and I am not riding without a hat .... .or reflective gear........... or mobile phone .......... or any other sensible safety precaution !!!! I take safety very seriously. It is precisely because I am aware of the danger posed by 1/2 ton equine power that I do what I do !!!!!!!!!! I am VERY aware of the injuries that can be caused by being involved with horses and it is the desire to avoid these situations that fuels my resolve to accustom any horse I work with to ALL forseeable scary things. Then there is less likelyhood of spooks, kicks, rears etc. There are many, many situations where we are in vulnerable positions should horse need to strike a fly (picking out feet, doing up girth, cleaning sheaths, clipping bellies ........ ) do you NOT do these I have seen someone paralysed by coming off a horse ..... I have seen a young girl kicked in the head from running behind a horse to make it go faster ?? ....... I have seen numerous people fall of horses and be kicked / bitten / squashed etc ... YES I am well aware that anything to do with horses carries a risk .... is that not what I have said repeatedly? so please do not patronise me when you have taken a horse once called dangerous, that used to deal with fear by mowing people down ... and was scared of men, whips, saddles , traffic, white stones, etc etc etc ....... and turn it into a horse that does the above ...... then come back and I will listen to your advice ............. Sorry if I come across as angry or confrontational ....... I rarely post in such an outspoken manner ........ but I do feel strongly about safety and developing a horse so that it has less to fear in this world we put it in to ....... where there are so may things to frighten it. We read so many threads on so many forums of riders asking for advice on how to prevent horses napping / spooking / bolting / kicking / barging / biting / not standing still for mounting etc etc etc . Lots of these are natural reactions of a frightened / unsure horse. How much more pleasant for a horse if it has learnt that most of the things it will encounter (including flying objects and contact around and under it) are not situations they need to leave from
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laura
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Post by laura on Dec 15, 2005 23:28:26 GMT 1
sorry posted in error
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natalia
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Post by natalia on Dec 16, 2005 9:56:47 GMT 1
I'm patronising you susan! I have done the same sorts of games with horse to desensitise him as he is a very spooky type. In your pictures your not climbing all over your horse, sliding off its tail or going underneath it ! And going underneath it is what we are talking about! Yes you may get kicked from the side but your less likely to get sent flying and trampled purely because the horse can see you, when it can't if your under its belly or directly behind it.
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Post by kas on Dec 16, 2005 10:02:30 GMT 1
I climb all over my horse and slide over it's tail as part of young horse starting - is there a problem with that? Watching my barefoot trimmer yesterday I wondered if I should put in some practise getting under my horses' bellies as well ;D But they didn't seem to mind. (You're patronsing Laura, not Susan Natalia - just to be clear about things).
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Post by Yann on Dec 16, 2005 10:28:02 GMT 1
People who know best always have the potential to annoy This thread does seem to have highlighted that there appear to be two different outlooks on how reliable and safe it's possible to have your horse be for you. Going under a horse is not greatly different to going anywhere else around it (as per KAS), the horse can still see you (unless it's very big and you're very small) and is well aware of your location.
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