Post by Admin on Aug 4, 2005 15:33:15 GMT 1
Subject : Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Nicola
Date : 25.08.04 3:55:00 PM
Hi
We have an elderly horse on the yard with navicular, at 35 barefoot is not an option as we don't think it would be fair to put him through the tranistion. He trips and stumbles a lot but on the whole for his age is doing really well! He is in light work and still really enjoys his hacks.
the owner obviously would like to try and get him as comfortable as possible. The tripping is a problem. he is currently in egg bars but we have heard of the benefit of cytek shoeing in these cases. however the website isnt very helpful and we have also heard some negative feedback from people who werent impressed!
Whilst the owner wants to try anything that could help she obviously doesnt want him to be made uncomfortable by trying the wrong option and although has considered cytek has been out off by the negatives she heard. At 35 it wouldnt be fair to try it unless it really did have a good success rate!
Can anyone with navicular horses (particulary older ones) who have tried cytek please let me know what they thought and how it is working / worked for them.
Thanks
Nicola
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : tara
Date : 25.08.04 4:14:00 PM
Nicola
You're best bet (especially with such an old boy) would be to use the contact form on the cytek website & speak to them directly.
Cheers
t
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Lora
Date : 25.08.04 4:44:00 PM
Hi Nicola,
There as you have seen are many Cytek threads here.
The negatives I have is possibly the lack of farriers in the UK trained to do it.
My horse is 20 with naviuclar and ringbones both articular and non on all 4 pasterns.
He has been in Cytek's for over 3 years now and is sound without the need of bute. I have seen Cytek as a complete success for my horse he is not really stiff which is what you would expect from a horse of this age with his condition.
Please have a word with Cytek I really hope they can help you. All the best.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 25.08.04 4:47:00 PM
Am I right in thinking there's a transition period for cytek too?
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : tara
Date : 25.08.04 4:53:00 PM
Lora's right, but we are trying to do something about this (see the FRC petition thread).
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Nicola
Date : 25.08.04 4:53:00 PM
Hi
Thanks I have looked at all the cytek threads but wanted something that dealt with this particular question and that I could collate the answers for the owner, who is really put off by what she has heard.
I have spoken to a cytek farrier who was very helpful but would like opinions of those who have tried it in practice. I am very much a proof is in the pudding girl! I found it really helpful to discuss peoples barefoot experiances when I was making the decision about taking my horses shoes off and hope that a thread like this will help the owner decide the direction she wants to pursue.
Thanks
Nicola
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 25.08.04 6:27:00 PM
nicola, i suggest that you speak to cytek, also my boy is shod cytek and never had a problem with the cyteks since he has been shod in them. i believe that the only person to make up her mind about cyteks is your owner friend, there is a lot of negativty on these forums because people do not understand cyteks, and because some people arnt happy with cyteks, does not mean that we are all unhappy with them, there is also a lot of good comments and good out come stories to,
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 25.08.04 9:40:00 PM
Hi anon,
Yes I agree there is a lot of negativity hence she was put off by the idea I just thought some positive exeriances may help her to make her decision, but I do take you point that she needs to talk to the farriers. Unfortunatly becuase each expert is very passionate about there field the only real way to get an objective view is to ask the people who use the system and how they find it.
Thanks,
Nic
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Di
Date : 25.08.04 9:49:00 PM
I am completely unbiaised all I have seen in one horse in cyteks who used to be able to walk, stand up straight and not stumble, put on cyteks and all those three things were causing him some problem
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : to Di
Date : 25.08.04 10:39:00 PM
Oh yeah? where is this horse tell Cytek .
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Jazz's Bane
Date : 25.08.04 10:50:00 PM
Difficult to answer this without seeing piccies.
Navicular is most often associated with underslung heels. Putting bar shoes on will only make this worse - as will shoeing back on the foot (often done to compensate for poor heels).
It's extremely difficult to fix this problem with shoes because you have to shorten the toes while also shortening the heels and removing flaring in front of the heels - to do this properly often leaves too little material to nail to. The shoes also tend to continue the upward crush of the heels and leave less options for adapting the trim for comfort.
I'm not a farrier, but I'd suggest that, to do this with shoes, you shouldn't need any fancy shoes, just a very sympathetic trim that addresses the length of the heels. Heels often look low (i.e. close to the ground) even when extremely long because they are crushed forward and almost horizontal. You have to shorten them (even if this means lowering the heels further) to fix the problem.
All this is a lot easier to do barefoot, but unfortunately, taking the shoes off often 'unmasks' the true extent of the pain the horse is in (shoes reduce circulation and hence sensation). For a young horse, the discomfort of the treatment is worth the results, but it is less clear for such an old horse. Even with barefoot techniques, you may be looking at 1-2 years to fix the problem.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : home hill
Date : 26.08.04 8:44:00 AM
Jazzes Bane , you have it in one Cytek already address all your coincerns on shoeing and you may find that the Cytek trim will also open your eyes as the maximum load trim that Cytek use ,fits for barefoot or the application of the Cytek shoe ,I have seen it and it is not KC/Strrasser or trad .It is mind blowing stuff .I have asked Cytek to do triming courses for us horse owners,they will as soon as they have a school in the UK .
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Ezji
Date : 26.08.04 9:12:00 AM
To speak from my own experience my horse was written off at 16 for 'navicular changes'. At age 27 she had her first pair of Cyteks and came sound. Also started developing a top line and more muscular quarters (always had a skinny TB bum!) Her feetbecame more upright and strong when they were collapsed with long toes before. Best thing I ever did.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Jazz's Bane
Date : 26.08.04 9:21:00 AM
Does anyone have decent set of photos of a horse after a cytek trim? I'd be interested to see how this compares with my own ideas on trimming to reduce heel pain.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Nicola to Jazz's Bane
Date : 26.08.04 11:39:00 AM
Hi
Thanks for your comments, i have just taken the shoes off my healthy 7 year old but I think at 35 it really wouldnt be fair at all (my boy is feeling it a bit and he has no problems) and i dont think the owner owner would consider it. At this stage the owner wants to do the best possible thing for the horse without causeing pain or discomfort - hence i suggestd that she look into cytek as an alternative to normal shoes - this didnt seem to be so drastic, although I do take your point about the heels, I think it is very comman for farriers to leave long heels, my own farrier is very "must get some heels on that horse" !!! . (our ground is very uneven and stoney)
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 26.08.04 1:43:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : lm
Date : 26.08.04 9:54:00 PM
Taking his shoes off will probably be the kindest thing you can do for this horse. You can use hoof boots and styrofoam pads to help cope with the transistion and ease any discomfort he may have.
If you go the Cytek root, they will remove his toe callus and he is likely to be far more sore during this transistion than he would be to barefoot (assuming you use a reputable barefoot trimmer and are careful to condition him slowly).
The Cytek trim is very severe and I would be very concerned about causing that amount of trauma to a horse of his age.
The fundamental issue with navicular is that the rear part of the foot is not functioning as it should be and thus the concussional forces are exacerbated.
The forces/shock that would usually be absorbed by a strong and healthy digital cushion are traveling up through the navicular bone instead.
As we all know, shoes (even Cytek) increase the concussional forces on the foot and therefore any barefoot horse will immedaitely benefit from this.
In addition to this the ability for the foot to heal itself is dramatically increased by the right trim and lack of a shoe.
We have heard a lot of good stories on here about the good that Cytek does. Unfortunately we have also heard some bad ones and I have experienced horses that have suffered extreme discomfort when shod this way.
I for one would definitely chose an equine podiatrist and go barefoot for this old boy. An EP works along the premise of 'do no harm' - from what I have seen and read on here, I do not think the same can be said of Cytek all of the time.
I hope you and your freind make the decision thats right for him and good luck!
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Susan
Date : 26.08.04 10:20:00 PM
The Cytek trim is severe! that is not the feed back I see or hear.
I can only speak of my own experiences and we have a horse in our yard barefoot as he is recovering from a splint removal op and then developed another. His owner did have him shod in Rim shoes but then had these removed. So they are keeping him barefoot now for as long as possible. Obviously this will help him and he is doing well but he is only on grass as they are scared to do anything else. But its my Cytek guy trimming him since he was unshod. He has also recently attended another friend who has all barefoot on hinds ( I think)and she had a KC trimmer come and do one the week before. The trim is very similar.
Perhaps the other poster hasnt seen this trim, perhaps Cytek are moving on more in developing themselves further.
I also believe Tara has one barefoot her baby big horse, and his trim was not radical at all.
(Nicola I have replied private ref farrier)
Its difficult helping others. You can point the way, give them information, but bottom line it has to be them to consider change.I dont say it is easy. I didnt jump into Cytek at all. I wanted answers, I wanted to speak to folks who could tell me unbiased the story of their horse.
But to be honest it made sense.Its not perfect, and shoeing with metal isnt perfect. But until we can develop better our horses are the learning curve of tomorrow but at least I have learned Rim Shoeing isnt for my horse and never will be.
Barefoot is best given that it can handle it. But if it cant and even considering boots and if not successful, then to me a shoe at this time has to be a Cytek shoe.
She has a good friend, your friend.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : lm
Date : 26.08.04 11:17:00 PM
From what I have seen and from the pictures on the Cytek website, I think it can only be described as a severe trim - a KC trimmer would NEVER trim the toe back in the same way as shown in the pictures on the official Cytek website!
According to previous Cytek threads it is fairly normal for horses to go through a transistional period were they can be very lame - as long as you are sensible the transistion to barefoot need not be this painful!!
Go for barefoot as it is by far the best option. If the horse cannot cope being barefoot and ridden then maybe your friend should consider retiring him from work at the grand old age of 35?
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Nicola
Date : 27.08.04 0:23:00 AM
Hi
Retirement isnt really feasible he hates being in the field too long due to being abandoned in the field before she had him, he panics and gets really upset - we try to kep him out as long as he wants but he is only happy for a couple of hours at a time. He also has slight arthritus which is better if he is worked. he is happy and sound (as he is gong to be) with the occasional bad day, tripping is the worst problem. he is only in light work enough to keep him interested and stop the stiffness creeping in. thankfully he is 35 but doesnt look it - he is very young at heart! He looks better than some 20 years olds!
much as I agree with barefoot I still dont think that this would be the fair option at his age - many horses cant cope with barefoot who are much younger and our ground is not very forgving. My horse (who I had have gone barefoot with 4 weeks ago)is feeling it and although sound i am having to take it slowly I cringe every time i see any discomfort from him! he is improving daily and I feel that if we can get through the transisiton this period will be worth it for him. I do take your point about boots but thats if you can find boots that are comfortable and do not rub. i have tried old macs for my boy but they left his heels pink after only a few minuites. (so if you could suggest any boots that would be great - its getting very expenisve mistakes !).
Obviously its the owners decision and i will print off all the info I can get for her to make up her own mind, Certainly she is interested in my horses barefoot progress but I think she would be reluctant to try it with her boy. the reason we were looking at Cytek was that this may be a compromise in the right direction. I will have a look at the cytek website armed with my KC book and compare the trims!
thanks
Nic
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Bonita
Date : 27.08.04 6:34:00 AM
Hi Nic and everyone on the thread.
I work at the yard where this horse is kept, and just to reiterate what Nicola says, barefoot really would not be an option for this old boy because of his mainly stabled lifestyle and age - Nicola is going all out to give her boy the most natural lifestyle she can to make barefoot work for her, the old horse's owner is unable to do that.
Our big concern with trying Cytek without getting as much feedback (good and bad) as we can, is that he is already old and having some problems, so anything that would have a long transition period is a worry - our aim is to make his last years better for him not worse!
Keep the input coming along with any other suggestions you might have.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 27.08.04 10:22:00 AM
up
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Rose
Date : 27.08.04 11:11:00 AM
Jazza Bane. All the books and articles recommend bar shoes for navicular
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : lm
Date : 27.08.04 11:32:00 AM
It is possible to keep a horse barefoot without giving it the totally natural lifestyle - you can stable them if need be.
Old Macs seem to rub some horses and not others. My two TBs wore them for long periods when they were going through the transistion and I didn't have a single rub mark.
Bar shoes are the recommended method of dealing with navicular but they only help by masking the problem, the degeneration continues as they do not address the fundamental issue which in most cases is a poorly functioning foot.
On this premise, any shoeing will lead to continued degeneration as the application of a shoe inhibits the foots ability to absorb shock and this in turn leads to increased pressure on the navicular bone.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 27.08.04 3:17:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 27.08.04 8:05:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Lora
Date : 27.08.04 9:33:00 PM
I feel I took a risk more than many here my horse at 17 was written off and my vet advised to me to put him on long term bute and eggbar shoes.
I was not happy with this at all and felt there must be another way.
I spoke to many people about Cyteks plus an eventer near me who is highly thought of. Well I did see threads on here that put me off a little but the way I saw I had knowhere else to go.
Navicular, ringbone (articular) in conventional terms had a very poor prognosis
He was more than likely going to be put down. What else was there for him?
He always had poor feet ( I should know I have owned him for 18 years) and he never held a shoe on longer than 3 weeks. He was always lame on and off with corns and suffered soft soles, just generally poor feet. I used in total 15 farriers to try and help him over the years and not one could, then of course he was diagnosed with navicular which came to no great surprise.
I have heard many critics on Cytek but most I have heard have never had really any direct dealing with them and it has only been hearsay. Plus some horses do take a few shoeings to come right and that does not mean they get worse after changing to Cytek but some do not get better straight away.
I am not going to discuss the downsounds of cyteks as I think the most obvious one is a lack of trained farriers doing it, plus some of the farriers at the beginning messed it up for Cytek by not adhering to the trimming and fitting of the shoes and basically mixing and matching with traditional. (very dangerous)
The real thing that some can not grasp is that Cytek does go against what we have all been taught and learnt and that can be difficult for owners, farriers and some vets.
Whilst I am not bashing anyone that does not agree with Cytek I do wish that some people would not bash the system until they know everything about it and not just from a website.
I feel I made the effort to talk to people that were using cyteks and yes I found many that were using them successfully.
So all I would say is don't be critical about something until you speak to as many people as possible that have had Cytek dealings direct.
My horse is sound and happy I am riding him and he rides better now than when he was 10.
The other thing that I don't like is the farriers that come on here slating the system. well to those people all I can say is 'you come up with something that has helped my horse as well as cytek and I would quite happily use your system' funny I have not seen much happening on the farrier front.
Anyway what matters to me is the fact my horse and many many others have really benefitted in changing to Cyteks plus the many that did switch over to barefoot after. Cytek are not anti- barefoot by the way as they trimmed my pony as well.
ok I got that off my chest I am sure there will be some that disagree with me but basically I don't really care as my sound horse speaks for himself.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : lm
Date : 27.08.04 11:48:00 PM
It amazes me that people think that farriers would waste their time coming on here just to slag off cytek - they have no need to, Cytek really isn't a threat to them!
Until Cytek sort out their PR they are of NO threat to farriers at all.
At the end of the day the only reason that Cytek us making any difference at all is due to the extremely poor standard of farriery in this country - this DOES NOT make Cytek RIGHT!!!
If farriers were shoeing correctly, we would not be seeing the amount of deformed feet and not have a need for remedial shoeing and alternatives such as Cytek.
Navicular is in most cases a man made disease that can be prevented with a good trim that promotes optimum foot funtion. Whatever shoe that is applied has a detrimental effect on foot function whether it be rim, NB or Cytek - as previously mentioned they are a necessary evil.
Cytek is not a miracle cure it is just more sucessful in some cases than a badly applied rim shoe.
It is amazing the difference that can be made when a horse receives a good balanced trim. It is even more amazing how few farriers can actually achieve this!
I took my 15 year old TB to a very well reknown farrier and in the hour it took me to box him home, his tendons went from being puffy (as they had been for some considerable time before) to being as tight and clean as a four year olds. He had a completely new lease of life despite being rim shod! - its the trim that is all important!!
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 27.08.04 11:50:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Dave
Date : 01.09.04 12:44:00 AM
Old Macs will not rub if used correctly. They will provide immediate relief. The fact that the bulbs went pink means that you had on a size too small
From : Nicola
Date : 25.08.04 3:55:00 PM
Hi
We have an elderly horse on the yard with navicular, at 35 barefoot is not an option as we don't think it would be fair to put him through the tranistion. He trips and stumbles a lot but on the whole for his age is doing really well! He is in light work and still really enjoys his hacks.
the owner obviously would like to try and get him as comfortable as possible. The tripping is a problem. he is currently in egg bars but we have heard of the benefit of cytek shoeing in these cases. however the website isnt very helpful and we have also heard some negative feedback from people who werent impressed!
Whilst the owner wants to try anything that could help she obviously doesnt want him to be made uncomfortable by trying the wrong option and although has considered cytek has been out off by the negatives she heard. At 35 it wouldnt be fair to try it unless it really did have a good success rate!
Can anyone with navicular horses (particulary older ones) who have tried cytek please let me know what they thought and how it is working / worked for them.
Thanks
Nicola
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : tara
Date : 25.08.04 4:14:00 PM
Nicola
You're best bet (especially with such an old boy) would be to use the contact form on the cytek website & speak to them directly.
Cheers
t
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Lora
Date : 25.08.04 4:44:00 PM
Hi Nicola,
There as you have seen are many Cytek threads here.
The negatives I have is possibly the lack of farriers in the UK trained to do it.
My horse is 20 with naviuclar and ringbones both articular and non on all 4 pasterns.
He has been in Cytek's for over 3 years now and is sound without the need of bute. I have seen Cytek as a complete success for my horse he is not really stiff which is what you would expect from a horse of this age with his condition.
Please have a word with Cytek I really hope they can help you. All the best.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 25.08.04 4:47:00 PM
Am I right in thinking there's a transition period for cytek too?
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : tara
Date : 25.08.04 4:53:00 PM
Lora's right, but we are trying to do something about this (see the FRC petition thread).
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Nicola
Date : 25.08.04 4:53:00 PM
Hi
Thanks I have looked at all the cytek threads but wanted something that dealt with this particular question and that I could collate the answers for the owner, who is really put off by what she has heard.
I have spoken to a cytek farrier who was very helpful but would like opinions of those who have tried it in practice. I am very much a proof is in the pudding girl! I found it really helpful to discuss peoples barefoot experiances when I was making the decision about taking my horses shoes off and hope that a thread like this will help the owner decide the direction she wants to pursue.
Thanks
Nicola
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 25.08.04 6:27:00 PM
nicola, i suggest that you speak to cytek, also my boy is shod cytek and never had a problem with the cyteks since he has been shod in them. i believe that the only person to make up her mind about cyteks is your owner friend, there is a lot of negativty on these forums because people do not understand cyteks, and because some people arnt happy with cyteks, does not mean that we are all unhappy with them, there is also a lot of good comments and good out come stories to,
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 25.08.04 9:40:00 PM
Hi anon,
Yes I agree there is a lot of negativity hence she was put off by the idea I just thought some positive exeriances may help her to make her decision, but I do take you point that she needs to talk to the farriers. Unfortunatly becuase each expert is very passionate about there field the only real way to get an objective view is to ask the people who use the system and how they find it.
Thanks,
Nic
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Di
Date : 25.08.04 9:49:00 PM
I am completely unbiaised all I have seen in one horse in cyteks who used to be able to walk, stand up straight and not stumble, put on cyteks and all those three things were causing him some problem
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : to Di
Date : 25.08.04 10:39:00 PM
Oh yeah? where is this horse tell Cytek .
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Jazz's Bane
Date : 25.08.04 10:50:00 PM
Difficult to answer this without seeing piccies.
Navicular is most often associated with underslung heels. Putting bar shoes on will only make this worse - as will shoeing back on the foot (often done to compensate for poor heels).
It's extremely difficult to fix this problem with shoes because you have to shorten the toes while also shortening the heels and removing flaring in front of the heels - to do this properly often leaves too little material to nail to. The shoes also tend to continue the upward crush of the heels and leave less options for adapting the trim for comfort.
I'm not a farrier, but I'd suggest that, to do this with shoes, you shouldn't need any fancy shoes, just a very sympathetic trim that addresses the length of the heels. Heels often look low (i.e. close to the ground) even when extremely long because they are crushed forward and almost horizontal. You have to shorten them (even if this means lowering the heels further) to fix the problem.
All this is a lot easier to do barefoot, but unfortunately, taking the shoes off often 'unmasks' the true extent of the pain the horse is in (shoes reduce circulation and hence sensation). For a young horse, the discomfort of the treatment is worth the results, but it is less clear for such an old horse. Even with barefoot techniques, you may be looking at 1-2 years to fix the problem.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : home hill
Date : 26.08.04 8:44:00 AM
Jazzes Bane , you have it in one Cytek already address all your coincerns on shoeing and you may find that the Cytek trim will also open your eyes as the maximum load trim that Cytek use ,fits for barefoot or the application of the Cytek shoe ,I have seen it and it is not KC/Strrasser or trad .It is mind blowing stuff .I have asked Cytek to do triming courses for us horse owners,they will as soon as they have a school in the UK .
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Ezji
Date : 26.08.04 9:12:00 AM
To speak from my own experience my horse was written off at 16 for 'navicular changes'. At age 27 she had her first pair of Cyteks and came sound. Also started developing a top line and more muscular quarters (always had a skinny TB bum!) Her feetbecame more upright and strong when they were collapsed with long toes before. Best thing I ever did.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Jazz's Bane
Date : 26.08.04 9:21:00 AM
Does anyone have decent set of photos of a horse after a cytek trim? I'd be interested to see how this compares with my own ideas on trimming to reduce heel pain.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Nicola to Jazz's Bane
Date : 26.08.04 11:39:00 AM
Hi
Thanks for your comments, i have just taken the shoes off my healthy 7 year old but I think at 35 it really wouldnt be fair at all (my boy is feeling it a bit and he has no problems) and i dont think the owner owner would consider it. At this stage the owner wants to do the best possible thing for the horse without causeing pain or discomfort - hence i suggestd that she look into cytek as an alternative to normal shoes - this didnt seem to be so drastic, although I do take your point about the heels, I think it is very comman for farriers to leave long heels, my own farrier is very "must get some heels on that horse" !!! . (our ground is very uneven and stoney)
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 26.08.04 1:43:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : lm
Date : 26.08.04 9:54:00 PM
Taking his shoes off will probably be the kindest thing you can do for this horse. You can use hoof boots and styrofoam pads to help cope with the transistion and ease any discomfort he may have.
If you go the Cytek root, they will remove his toe callus and he is likely to be far more sore during this transistion than he would be to barefoot (assuming you use a reputable barefoot trimmer and are careful to condition him slowly).
The Cytek trim is very severe and I would be very concerned about causing that amount of trauma to a horse of his age.
The fundamental issue with navicular is that the rear part of the foot is not functioning as it should be and thus the concussional forces are exacerbated.
The forces/shock that would usually be absorbed by a strong and healthy digital cushion are traveling up through the navicular bone instead.
As we all know, shoes (even Cytek) increase the concussional forces on the foot and therefore any barefoot horse will immedaitely benefit from this.
In addition to this the ability for the foot to heal itself is dramatically increased by the right trim and lack of a shoe.
We have heard a lot of good stories on here about the good that Cytek does. Unfortunately we have also heard some bad ones and I have experienced horses that have suffered extreme discomfort when shod this way.
I for one would definitely chose an equine podiatrist and go barefoot for this old boy. An EP works along the premise of 'do no harm' - from what I have seen and read on here, I do not think the same can be said of Cytek all of the time.
I hope you and your freind make the decision thats right for him and good luck!
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Susan
Date : 26.08.04 10:20:00 PM
The Cytek trim is severe! that is not the feed back I see or hear.
I can only speak of my own experiences and we have a horse in our yard barefoot as he is recovering from a splint removal op and then developed another. His owner did have him shod in Rim shoes but then had these removed. So they are keeping him barefoot now for as long as possible. Obviously this will help him and he is doing well but he is only on grass as they are scared to do anything else. But its my Cytek guy trimming him since he was unshod. He has also recently attended another friend who has all barefoot on hinds ( I think)and she had a KC trimmer come and do one the week before. The trim is very similar.
Perhaps the other poster hasnt seen this trim, perhaps Cytek are moving on more in developing themselves further.
I also believe Tara has one barefoot her baby big horse, and his trim was not radical at all.
(Nicola I have replied private ref farrier)
Its difficult helping others. You can point the way, give them information, but bottom line it has to be them to consider change.I dont say it is easy. I didnt jump into Cytek at all. I wanted answers, I wanted to speak to folks who could tell me unbiased the story of their horse.
But to be honest it made sense.Its not perfect, and shoeing with metal isnt perfect. But until we can develop better our horses are the learning curve of tomorrow but at least I have learned Rim Shoeing isnt for my horse and never will be.
Barefoot is best given that it can handle it. But if it cant and even considering boots and if not successful, then to me a shoe at this time has to be a Cytek shoe.
She has a good friend, your friend.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : lm
Date : 26.08.04 11:17:00 PM
From what I have seen and from the pictures on the Cytek website, I think it can only be described as a severe trim - a KC trimmer would NEVER trim the toe back in the same way as shown in the pictures on the official Cytek website!
According to previous Cytek threads it is fairly normal for horses to go through a transistional period were they can be very lame - as long as you are sensible the transistion to barefoot need not be this painful!!
Go for barefoot as it is by far the best option. If the horse cannot cope being barefoot and ridden then maybe your friend should consider retiring him from work at the grand old age of 35?
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Nicola
Date : 27.08.04 0:23:00 AM
Hi
Retirement isnt really feasible he hates being in the field too long due to being abandoned in the field before she had him, he panics and gets really upset - we try to kep him out as long as he wants but he is only happy for a couple of hours at a time. He also has slight arthritus which is better if he is worked. he is happy and sound (as he is gong to be) with the occasional bad day, tripping is the worst problem. he is only in light work enough to keep him interested and stop the stiffness creeping in. thankfully he is 35 but doesnt look it - he is very young at heart! He looks better than some 20 years olds!
much as I agree with barefoot I still dont think that this would be the fair option at his age - many horses cant cope with barefoot who are much younger and our ground is not very forgving. My horse (who I had have gone barefoot with 4 weeks ago)is feeling it and although sound i am having to take it slowly I cringe every time i see any discomfort from him! he is improving daily and I feel that if we can get through the transisiton this period will be worth it for him. I do take your point about boots but thats if you can find boots that are comfortable and do not rub. i have tried old macs for my boy but they left his heels pink after only a few minuites. (so if you could suggest any boots that would be great - its getting very expenisve mistakes !).
Obviously its the owners decision and i will print off all the info I can get for her to make up her own mind, Certainly she is interested in my horses barefoot progress but I think she would be reluctant to try it with her boy. the reason we were looking at Cytek was that this may be a compromise in the right direction. I will have a look at the cytek website armed with my KC book and compare the trims!
thanks
Nic
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Bonita
Date : 27.08.04 6:34:00 AM
Hi Nic and everyone on the thread.
I work at the yard where this horse is kept, and just to reiterate what Nicola says, barefoot really would not be an option for this old boy because of his mainly stabled lifestyle and age - Nicola is going all out to give her boy the most natural lifestyle she can to make barefoot work for her, the old horse's owner is unable to do that.
Our big concern with trying Cytek without getting as much feedback (good and bad) as we can, is that he is already old and having some problems, so anything that would have a long transition period is a worry - our aim is to make his last years better for him not worse!
Keep the input coming along with any other suggestions you might have.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 27.08.04 10:22:00 AM
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Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Rose
Date : 27.08.04 11:11:00 AM
Jazza Bane. All the books and articles recommend bar shoes for navicular
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : lm
Date : 27.08.04 11:32:00 AM
It is possible to keep a horse barefoot without giving it the totally natural lifestyle - you can stable them if need be.
Old Macs seem to rub some horses and not others. My two TBs wore them for long periods when they were going through the transistion and I didn't have a single rub mark.
Bar shoes are the recommended method of dealing with navicular but they only help by masking the problem, the degeneration continues as they do not address the fundamental issue which in most cases is a poorly functioning foot.
On this premise, any shoeing will lead to continued degeneration as the application of a shoe inhibits the foots ability to absorb shock and this in turn leads to increased pressure on the navicular bone.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 27.08.04 3:17:00 PM
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Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 27.08.04 8:05:00 PM
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Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Lora
Date : 27.08.04 9:33:00 PM
I feel I took a risk more than many here my horse at 17 was written off and my vet advised to me to put him on long term bute and eggbar shoes.
I was not happy with this at all and felt there must be another way.
I spoke to many people about Cyteks plus an eventer near me who is highly thought of. Well I did see threads on here that put me off a little but the way I saw I had knowhere else to go.
Navicular, ringbone (articular) in conventional terms had a very poor prognosis
He was more than likely going to be put down. What else was there for him?
He always had poor feet ( I should know I have owned him for 18 years) and he never held a shoe on longer than 3 weeks. He was always lame on and off with corns and suffered soft soles, just generally poor feet. I used in total 15 farriers to try and help him over the years and not one could, then of course he was diagnosed with navicular which came to no great surprise.
I have heard many critics on Cytek but most I have heard have never had really any direct dealing with them and it has only been hearsay. Plus some horses do take a few shoeings to come right and that does not mean they get worse after changing to Cytek but some do not get better straight away.
I am not going to discuss the downsounds of cyteks as I think the most obvious one is a lack of trained farriers doing it, plus some of the farriers at the beginning messed it up for Cytek by not adhering to the trimming and fitting of the shoes and basically mixing and matching with traditional. (very dangerous)
The real thing that some can not grasp is that Cytek does go against what we have all been taught and learnt and that can be difficult for owners, farriers and some vets.
Whilst I am not bashing anyone that does not agree with Cytek I do wish that some people would not bash the system until they know everything about it and not just from a website.
I feel I made the effort to talk to people that were using cyteks and yes I found many that were using them successfully.
So all I would say is don't be critical about something until you speak to as many people as possible that have had Cytek dealings direct.
My horse is sound and happy I am riding him and he rides better now than when he was 10.
The other thing that I don't like is the farriers that come on here slating the system. well to those people all I can say is 'you come up with something that has helped my horse as well as cytek and I would quite happily use your system' funny I have not seen much happening on the farrier front.
Anyway what matters to me is the fact my horse and many many others have really benefitted in changing to Cyteks plus the many that did switch over to barefoot after. Cytek are not anti- barefoot by the way as they trimmed my pony as well.
ok I got that off my chest I am sure there will be some that disagree with me but basically I don't really care as my sound horse speaks for himself.
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : lm
Date : 27.08.04 11:48:00 PM
It amazes me that people think that farriers would waste their time coming on here just to slag off cytek - they have no need to, Cytek really isn't a threat to them!
Until Cytek sort out their PR they are of NO threat to farriers at all.
At the end of the day the only reason that Cytek us making any difference at all is due to the extremely poor standard of farriery in this country - this DOES NOT make Cytek RIGHT!!!
If farriers were shoeing correctly, we would not be seeing the amount of deformed feet and not have a need for remedial shoeing and alternatives such as Cytek.
Navicular is in most cases a man made disease that can be prevented with a good trim that promotes optimum foot funtion. Whatever shoe that is applied has a detrimental effect on foot function whether it be rim, NB or Cytek - as previously mentioned they are a necessary evil.
Cytek is not a miracle cure it is just more sucessful in some cases than a badly applied rim shoe.
It is amazing the difference that can be made when a horse receives a good balanced trim. It is even more amazing how few farriers can actually achieve this!
I took my 15 year old TB to a very well reknown farrier and in the hour it took me to box him home, his tendons went from being puffy (as they had been for some considerable time before) to being as tight and clean as a four year olds. He had a completely new lease of life despite being rim shod! - its the trim that is all important!!
Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From :
Date : 27.08.04 11:50:00 PM
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Subject : re:- Old horse with Navicular - cytek shoes success for this this?
From : Dave
Date : 01.09.04 12:44:00 AM
Old Macs will not rub if used correctly. They will provide immediate relief. The fact that the bulbs went pink means that you had on a size too small