Post by Admin on Aug 4, 2005 14:05:05 GMT 1
Subject : Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Kris
Date : 05.03.04 3:34:00 PM
I have got a little NF mare who has been suffering with laminitis for some time due to Cushings.
She is on Bute and Peroglide and I have been feeding her Happy Hoof and High Fiber Cubes from Spillers and Simple Systems unmollased Sufar beet. I have also been giving her the supplement Founderfrei and Orchard Harvest from Trinity Consultants.
She has had her mask on for some months now and out daily. She is also fed about 8lb of hay at night. I have noticed that she is loosing weight. I was thinking of putting her on Simple Systems Lucerne nuts and Total Eclipse and cutting out the Spillers products and supplements from Trinity Consultants and hoping that she may put on some weight.
She has had her teeth checked and wormed regularly. Please could anyone help with ideas. I know her age may be against her but we have got to try our best.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 05.03.04 4:53:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : anon
Date : 05.03.04 5:46:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 05.03.04 5:52:00 PM
HI
I had an old mare who started looking thin. Her teeth had been checked by a recommended "denitist" but because I was a novice owner I didn't take much notice that he rasped without using a gag... It was only when I got the vet out that he advised her teeth were far worse than we thought and I needed to soak her food into a mash. She was also not fed hay because she couldn't chew it down enough to get any benefit from it and it went straight through. She ended up being fed 3 times a day in an effort to get some weight on. Might be worth getting a second opinion on the teeth. Good luck.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 05.03.04 6:03:00 PM
I'll get back to your later Kris, just waiting for the vet and need to say a lot.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 05.03.04 7:05:00 PM
We used to add corn oil to the feed of our Cushings boy to help him keep weight on, especially at this time of year. He kept weight on well all winter and regained it after Easter, but for about 6 weeks before mid-April, he lost weight and worried me silly in the first year that we had him. We organised it so that we switched from chaff based to alfalfa for the few weeks and increased the oil to give him more calories. As he got even older - 43 when he died - we used to add Bailey's no 2 (the one that looks like polenta). It's not really recommended for laminitics, but as he had never had an attack since we took him on, we felt that the advantages outweighed the risk.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 05.03.04 7:29:00 PM
stick to a alfalfa based chaff, use a feed balancer top spec or equilibra and add some unmollassed sugar beet. I don't think they reccomend feeding oil to cushings horses?
little and often is definately best and adlib hay will help.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 05.03.04 8:20:00 PM
Have you checked her blood on pergolide, do you know she is still responding OK? Maybe a mixture of pergolide and vitex might suit her better.
Are her feet in good balance?
Cushing's cases do suffer immunosuppression so worms can get on top of them. It may be worth double checking with a fecal.
High Fibre Cubes do contain some mollases and also FOS, so yes, I think it well worth trying changing those to more beet pulp, or beet and alfalfa/Alfa-beet.
I don't know what is in Rogers supps, but I somehow doubt she is getting as high a plane of micronutrition as we find they need. The very minimum I would give is a full dose of a good all round supplement like TopSpec comprehensive or D&H Surelimb.
I would prefer TopSpec balancer, but if she might be right 'on the edge' then a supp will be the safest for now.
I would add some magnesium oxide to that, or Maglyte from Roger. And some form of extra anti-oxident, 1 or 2000iu vitamin E and 1-2 mg selenium, and/or NAF De-Tox.
A course of Restore from Global herbs never goes amiss, and may just give her a bit of a boost.
You can minimise sugar in your hay by soaking it for a couple or three hours. Stemmy meadow hay is usually the lowest in sugar, ryegrass the highest.
If you are on a constant hay supply, analysing it and balacing minerals to it exactly may give you the best results, instead of a 'shot-gun' mineral supplement. Roger can produce you something to your requirement. We frequently find hays with severe imbalances - high iron or manganese usually, and a lot of horses do much better when these are balanced (though there are nearly always other diet changes).
And lastly grass - I don't know if you are monitering insulin, but that tells you her response to grass and seems to be the single feature most associated with laminitis. High insulin = high risk. Insulin resistance when out of control can cause weightloss, and as the cortisolin Cushings causes a wasting of lean muscle, you can get a double whammy.
There are quality of life issues I realise, and some people just cannot arrange grass free turnout, but many horses will not come sound until they are taken off grass completely.
Hope this helps.
There's loads of info available on all this on the group.
Jackie
groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMetabolicHorse
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Kris
Date : 05.03.04 8:33:00 PM
Another good group where the
IR work, hay soaking trials, use of ACTH, mineral balancing was done is
groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/
Go to the source
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Veronica F
Date : 05.03.04 8:55:00 PM
Hi Kris, sorry I can't help you, I have the same although I am managing her weight at themoment, but I have the same in my April she is 33 years old this year bless her,I read jackies great advice and it touched me thinking about April, she can hardley go on the grass:O( small amounts of times
( but she is a very happy little soul and she is still very happy with her life, she has a penned in area around her stable to be able to go in and out and company too,I have to have her teeth looked at very regularly and that does help her love Vxxx
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 06.03.04 0:35:00 AM
Um, as a point of fact the Cushings group did not invent any of the above - the UK was way ahead of the US in all of it, though we brought a few things together for the first time on that group.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Kris
Date : 10.03.04 3:59:00 PM
Just got back to the pc from when I put the message on so thanks for your responses. I will look on the web site to get some good ideas.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 10.03.04 4:04:00 PM
I would definatelt recomend the Restore Liver tonic from Indian Herbs Equine - it has really de-toxed and helped his condition conciderably
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Kris
Date : 11.03.04 11:33:00 AM
Hi Jackie
I had more time to read your advice which seems always good.
I have not had her blood test while she has been on the Peroglide and it is a consideration but trying to stop having to call the vet as a little luck of money.
I have recently wormed her and I was thinking of having a worm count. I am always wary about effects from certain wormers.
Regarding The Top Spec Comprehensive is this similiar to the Farriers Formular as she did not like this I tried a variety of ideas to get her to eat this but still have 1/2 a pot left so this is why I contacted Trinity and she is on Founderfrei which has the same ingredients that I can see as the Restore just in powder form.
We buy our hay we buy in and I have used a few bales recently which are not of good quality which she has been leaving and found twigs in them.
I have been keeping a eye on her grazing and she has been out for longer recently due to work commitments and could be a reason as when she is in she is being fed hay. She does get stressed when being in which is also not good for her.
She is fed High Fibre Cubes which I put a couple of handfuls in her playball to keep her happy and she always goes to this first so do not really want to cut these out unless there is a alternative.
Quality of life is my main concern she has given me so much pleasure over the years and I think I owe her that.
My farrier specialises in surgical shoeing and during the winter months she has had natural balance shoes and the way she is moving around the field do not think that this could be a problem.
I know you also recommended Maglyte, Vit E and selenium or De Tox which is also a consideration.
I will have a chat with a few suppliers on your recommendations and maybe have a worm count taken and bllod test and go from there.
Many thanks again you have helped us out so much in the past with your advice and made me able to give her a better quality of life.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 11.03.04 1:00:00 PM
There is also a urine test called a creatinine-cortisol ratio test. That measures the rate of cortisol excretion, so should be able to confirm your treatment of the tumour/ACTH production is working if it is low.
You can check that without a vet visit, and the test costs £20.
But insulin is the only way to check on response to diet.
If she does not like supps you could carefully try her on TopSpec or Lo-Cal balancers in her ball with some lucienuts - you badly need to get some minerals into her IMO, they need traces like zinc and copper to repair and build a healthy hoof, and Total eclipse does not supply them, it was not designed to. TopSpec have apparently increased their vitamin E and selenium content too, so maybe the NAF product would be good with that, fed in some unmollased beet pulp or chaff.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Kris
Date : 11.03.04 3:38:00 PM
Hi Jackie
Many thanks this does seem the way forward. I will go to the feed merchants at the weekend and get the Top Spec and Naf D Tox. I have not as yet got her the Total Eclipse so no problem. I have got hold of some Lucinuts that I am introducing to her does not seem to be problem at moment.
I may have a little problem getting the urine sample. Will think of ideas on that one. Many thanks again will keep you updated.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Concerned
Date : 03.06.04 10:10:00 PM
Can you get the diabetic test strips for humans to test horses ? Can you test your own horse for insulin levels ??
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 03.06.04 11:30:00 PM
You can get diabetic test kits that test for sugar in the urine, and glucose meters to test the blood sugar, both of which can be used for horses, but only late stage or badly managed IR or Cushing's cases become actually diabetic, most just have very high insulin. Unfortinately there is no kit for that, you need to draw a blood and do a lab.
From : Kris
Date : 05.03.04 3:34:00 PM
I have got a little NF mare who has been suffering with laminitis for some time due to Cushings.
She is on Bute and Peroglide and I have been feeding her Happy Hoof and High Fiber Cubes from Spillers and Simple Systems unmollased Sufar beet. I have also been giving her the supplement Founderfrei and Orchard Harvest from Trinity Consultants.
She has had her mask on for some months now and out daily. She is also fed about 8lb of hay at night. I have noticed that she is loosing weight. I was thinking of putting her on Simple Systems Lucerne nuts and Total Eclipse and cutting out the Spillers products and supplements from Trinity Consultants and hoping that she may put on some weight.
She has had her teeth checked and wormed regularly. Please could anyone help with ideas. I know her age may be against her but we have got to try our best.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 05.03.04 4:53:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : anon
Date : 05.03.04 5:46:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 05.03.04 5:52:00 PM
HI
I had an old mare who started looking thin. Her teeth had been checked by a recommended "denitist" but because I was a novice owner I didn't take much notice that he rasped without using a gag... It was only when I got the vet out that he advised her teeth were far worse than we thought and I needed to soak her food into a mash. She was also not fed hay because she couldn't chew it down enough to get any benefit from it and it went straight through. She ended up being fed 3 times a day in an effort to get some weight on. Might be worth getting a second opinion on the teeth. Good luck.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 05.03.04 6:03:00 PM
I'll get back to your later Kris, just waiting for the vet and need to say a lot.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 05.03.04 7:05:00 PM
We used to add corn oil to the feed of our Cushings boy to help him keep weight on, especially at this time of year. He kept weight on well all winter and regained it after Easter, but for about 6 weeks before mid-April, he lost weight and worried me silly in the first year that we had him. We organised it so that we switched from chaff based to alfalfa for the few weeks and increased the oil to give him more calories. As he got even older - 43 when he died - we used to add Bailey's no 2 (the one that looks like polenta). It's not really recommended for laminitics, but as he had never had an attack since we took him on, we felt that the advantages outweighed the risk.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 05.03.04 7:29:00 PM
stick to a alfalfa based chaff, use a feed balancer top spec or equilibra and add some unmollassed sugar beet. I don't think they reccomend feeding oil to cushings horses?
little and often is definately best and adlib hay will help.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 05.03.04 8:20:00 PM
Have you checked her blood on pergolide, do you know she is still responding OK? Maybe a mixture of pergolide and vitex might suit her better.
Are her feet in good balance?
Cushing's cases do suffer immunosuppression so worms can get on top of them. It may be worth double checking with a fecal.
High Fibre Cubes do contain some mollases and also FOS, so yes, I think it well worth trying changing those to more beet pulp, or beet and alfalfa/Alfa-beet.
I don't know what is in Rogers supps, but I somehow doubt she is getting as high a plane of micronutrition as we find they need. The very minimum I would give is a full dose of a good all round supplement like TopSpec comprehensive or D&H Surelimb.
I would prefer TopSpec balancer, but if she might be right 'on the edge' then a supp will be the safest for now.
I would add some magnesium oxide to that, or Maglyte from Roger. And some form of extra anti-oxident, 1 or 2000iu vitamin E and 1-2 mg selenium, and/or NAF De-Tox.
A course of Restore from Global herbs never goes amiss, and may just give her a bit of a boost.
You can minimise sugar in your hay by soaking it for a couple or three hours. Stemmy meadow hay is usually the lowest in sugar, ryegrass the highest.
If you are on a constant hay supply, analysing it and balacing minerals to it exactly may give you the best results, instead of a 'shot-gun' mineral supplement. Roger can produce you something to your requirement. We frequently find hays with severe imbalances - high iron or manganese usually, and a lot of horses do much better when these are balanced (though there are nearly always other diet changes).
And lastly grass - I don't know if you are monitering insulin, but that tells you her response to grass and seems to be the single feature most associated with laminitis. High insulin = high risk. Insulin resistance when out of control can cause weightloss, and as the cortisolin Cushings causes a wasting of lean muscle, you can get a double whammy.
There are quality of life issues I realise, and some people just cannot arrange grass free turnout, but many horses will not come sound until they are taken off grass completely.
Hope this helps.
There's loads of info available on all this on the group.
Jackie
groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMetabolicHorse
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Kris
Date : 05.03.04 8:33:00 PM
Another good group where the
IR work, hay soaking trials, use of ACTH, mineral balancing was done is
groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/
Go to the source
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Veronica F
Date : 05.03.04 8:55:00 PM
Hi Kris, sorry I can't help you, I have the same although I am managing her weight at themoment, but I have the same in my April she is 33 years old this year bless her,I read jackies great advice and it touched me thinking about April, she can hardley go on the grass:O( small amounts of times
( but she is a very happy little soul and she is still very happy with her life, she has a penned in area around her stable to be able to go in and out and company too,I have to have her teeth looked at very regularly and that does help her love Vxxx Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 06.03.04 0:35:00 AM
Um, as a point of fact the Cushings group did not invent any of the above - the UK was way ahead of the US in all of it, though we brought a few things together for the first time on that group.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Kris
Date : 10.03.04 3:59:00 PM
Just got back to the pc from when I put the message on so thanks for your responses. I will look on the web site to get some good ideas.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From :
Date : 10.03.04 4:04:00 PM
I would definatelt recomend the Restore Liver tonic from Indian Herbs Equine - it has really de-toxed and helped his condition conciderably
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Kris
Date : 11.03.04 11:33:00 AM
Hi Jackie
I had more time to read your advice which seems always good.
I have not had her blood test while she has been on the Peroglide and it is a consideration but trying to stop having to call the vet as a little luck of money.
I have recently wormed her and I was thinking of having a worm count. I am always wary about effects from certain wormers.
Regarding The Top Spec Comprehensive is this similiar to the Farriers Formular as she did not like this I tried a variety of ideas to get her to eat this but still have 1/2 a pot left so this is why I contacted Trinity and she is on Founderfrei which has the same ingredients that I can see as the Restore just in powder form.
We buy our hay we buy in and I have used a few bales recently which are not of good quality which she has been leaving and found twigs in them.
I have been keeping a eye on her grazing and she has been out for longer recently due to work commitments and could be a reason as when she is in she is being fed hay. She does get stressed when being in which is also not good for her.
She is fed High Fibre Cubes which I put a couple of handfuls in her playball to keep her happy and she always goes to this first so do not really want to cut these out unless there is a alternative.
Quality of life is my main concern she has given me so much pleasure over the years and I think I owe her that.
My farrier specialises in surgical shoeing and during the winter months she has had natural balance shoes and the way she is moving around the field do not think that this could be a problem.
I know you also recommended Maglyte, Vit E and selenium or De Tox which is also a consideration.
I will have a chat with a few suppliers on your recommendations and maybe have a worm count taken and bllod test and go from there.
Many thanks again you have helped us out so much in the past with your advice and made me able to give her a better quality of life.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 11.03.04 1:00:00 PM
There is also a urine test called a creatinine-cortisol ratio test. That measures the rate of cortisol excretion, so should be able to confirm your treatment of the tumour/ACTH production is working if it is low.
You can check that without a vet visit, and the test costs £20.
But insulin is the only way to check on response to diet.
If she does not like supps you could carefully try her on TopSpec or Lo-Cal balancers in her ball with some lucienuts - you badly need to get some minerals into her IMO, they need traces like zinc and copper to repair and build a healthy hoof, and Total eclipse does not supply them, it was not designed to. TopSpec have apparently increased their vitamin E and selenium content too, so maybe the NAF product would be good with that, fed in some unmollased beet pulp or chaff.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Kris
Date : 11.03.04 3:38:00 PM
Hi Jackie
Many thanks this does seem the way forward. I will go to the feed merchants at the weekend and get the Top Spec and Naf D Tox. I have not as yet got her the Total Eclipse so no problem. I have got hold of some Lucinuts that I am introducing to her does not seem to be problem at moment.
I may have a little problem getting the urine sample. Will think of ideas on that one. Many thanks again will keep you updated.
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : Concerned
Date : 03.06.04 10:10:00 PM
Can you get the diabetic test strips for humans to test horses ? Can you test your own horse for insulin levels ??
Subject : re:- Feeding Laminitic/Cushings
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 03.06.04 11:30:00 PM
You can get diabetic test kits that test for sugar in the urine, and glucose meters to test the blood sugar, both of which can be used for horses, but only late stage or badly managed IR or Cushing's cases become actually diabetic, most just have very high insulin. Unfortinately there is no kit for that, you need to draw a blood and do a lab.