Post by Admin on Aug 4, 2005 14:16:00 GMT 1
Subject : Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : Anon for this
Date : 21.04.05 7:33:00 AM
Hi All - I have a fairly excitable TB who can be prone to 'repeated behaviour patterns' when she's upset (recently marched along the fence line of her field for three days after a nightmre time with the vet, yawns LOTS when ever she feels worried).
Anyway, to cut a long story short, there is a girl who used to be at my yard who is planning to bring her new horse back next month. I haven't seen this horse but she has already told me that she cribs and wind-sucks.
I have heard rumours of horses copying this behaviour and worry that, as my girl can be a bit 'compulsive' (!) that she might end up doing it too.
I've had no experience of this at all and welcome all comments.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 7:44:00 AM
there has been some success with stable mirrors(safe ones)helping horses with this and other stable vices. My mare used to crib but with different forages and a lick and feeding adlib haylage from the floor and giving her plenty of work.(e.g. ridden most days)she has stopped cribbing altogether and when we first had her the EDT told us not to buy her as the cribbing showed on her teeth.(we had her on a trial period) I would say get rid of haynets as feeding off the floor is far better and when horse has its head down it is not thinking about cribbing.
I have heard it said that they don't copy each other and that is a misunderstanding.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 7:47:00 AM
sorry my last sentence is not well put. what I am trying to say is that I and others don't think they copy each others bad habits. Too early in the morning to make much sense sorry.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : OP
Date : 21.04.05 7:54:00 AM
Trouble is, all horses are living out. The new horse cribs and sucks on fence posts in the field
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 8:01:00 AM
According to my vet and two equine behaviourists (one an RA), it is not copied behaviour.
My horse is a part time/ex cribber and it seems to make no difference to him whether others are doing it or not.
The fact that they're living out is a big plus as it reduces the tendancy to crib anyway.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : OP
Date : 21.04.05 8:05:00 AM
Thank you, Anon 8:01:00 AM. That's what I'd always thought, but rumours started circulating and wanted to make sure!
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : Adam
Date : 21.04.05 8:42:00 AM
I agree with anons. Cribbing is mostly caused by digestive upset and lack of food. If there all living out your mare won't have any reason to crib so should be ok.
There's been alot of reseach done by Paul mcgreevy (amoung others) into sterotypies and no one has been able to show that horses copy each other. Infact no one;s even sure horses mimic each other at all in a learning sense
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 8:48:00 AM
Adam. you are such a bore.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : sula's mum
Date : 21.04.05 8:49:00 AM
LOL could the wing sucking horse be Pegasus
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 8:54:00 AM
Anon 8:48 actually Adam is very informative and knows what he is talking about!
I had a thorougbred mare that crib bites and weaves excessively when we got her, my son's purchase not mine, it is as Adam says a digestive upset and lack of food, she even used to weave excessively in the field. I never believed she could be cured, we went a different route though, I am lucky to have exceptionally good grazing, having just moved house to get it, she never looked back, even when stabled now she has no vices. We have also put her to my stallion who I think she has a lifetime bond with now.
I have other horses, one who did mimic for about five minutes because he was unhappy about something but he has never repeated this action, so I wouldn't worry.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : sunny's mum
Date : 21.04.05 9:02:00 AM
I learnt a lot about this whilst doing my degree at hartpury. My behaviour lecturer was Amanda Waters who's done many studies in crib-biting with the likes of C. Nicol and P. McGreevy. There is absolutely no evidence that the stereotypy can be copied but the reason you see many horses on the same yard performing the behaviour is probabaly because of sub-optimal welfare conditions at the stables (e.g lack of turn-out, high concentrate/low forage diets etc).
There is a small possibility that foals may copy their mother's if they crib-bite but this has yet to be researched.
The reason horses are able to copy behaviours such as door kicking but not crib-biting is because the horse can visibly see a reward for door kicking i.e kicks at feed time so gets food, therefore it has the motivation to perform the behaviour. The horse cannot see what a crib-biting horse gets as a reward so sees no point in doing it himself. Also crib-biting is quite a complex behaviour so is more difficult to copy.
Hope this makes sense and is of some use:)
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : 8.01
Date : 21.04.05 10:11:00 AM
Would also suggest that your friend consider blood tests for her cribber - many have underlying stomach ulcers which are the cause of the behaviour. Hence why many competition horses, with low forage and turn out diets, and high stress, are often found to be cribbers.
Note that cribbing and wind sucking is more often related to a physical imbalance than weaving which is more a sign of mental trauma.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : Nina V
Date : 21.04.05 10:30:00 AM
Search the threads on here for Settlex it has lots of good points about this in there.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 12:10:00 AM
I have an Anglo-Arab on loan, he cribs for England and yet he is on a high fibre diet, good grass and more haylage than he can eat. We change his field every month so always has good grass and a change of scenery. He is tuurned out every day and will soon be out 24/7. He started the habit while at Equine college for a term with his owner, they think due to the stress of no turn out but seems to have got worse with us because we have all post and rail fencing. He seems worse at feed times and when he comes to a fence for a drink out of the trough. I will try feeding him his haylage on the floor to see if that helps.
He was a rescue and has been deprived of food as a youngster do you think thats why he cribs most at feed times and while eating?
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 8:23:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : KAS
Date : 21.04.05 8:40:00 PM
I have a T/B, he cribs for England and yet is out 24/7, on good good grass with company. I've seen him cribbing on the fences in a field of good grass with company. He is with 5 horses, 2 of them youngsters, who have never copied any of his behaviour. I don't believe that horses copy this behaviours, I also have a weaver and none of the youngsters copy this either.
JUst to add T/B was rescued from a racing yard where his cribbing probably started, he has been tested for ulcers and his life syle has changed but he still does it.
He's not hurting me or anyone else, so I just let him get on with it
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 9:24:00 PM
I also have a TB x ID who cribs for england. he's out 24 x 7 and has been for 2 years. None of my other 4 have copied, they just look at his as if he's nuts. Not even my youngster.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : Babs
Date : 21.04.05 10:13:00 PM
Interesting comments, having had many horses over the years, I have come to the conclusion that if a horse gives me 100% while competing, schooling, hacking etc what it does in its own time is up to him.
Stable vices are not learned from others, they develop over time wether due to circumstances or other reasons, they are in my opinion a horses safety valve. I sometimes wonder if the horse that shows great signs of stress would not be better if it cribbed or windsucked, at least when a horse does these things he is coping with his own stress in his own way!!!!
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : dlogan
Date : 22.04.05 6:35:00 AM
My friend's horse wind sucks for England as well. My horse has been with him in close contact for three years now. We've moved them around to different yards and so he's been with lots of other horses, a few, like mine, consistently and lots of others for varying lengths of time. None of the others have started wind sucking. This lady's other horse has been with him almost from birth I think, as a companion, so around him her whole life. She would seem to be the 'most impressionable' if you see what I mean and exposed to the behavior since birth. She hasn't taken up wind sucking either, though she does weave a bit with separation anxiety, so seems a bit prone to stereotypies herself. As for wind sucking as a vice, this guy was on the verge of being destoyed for various reasons, when my friend took him on. She has also had several other people say 'I would shoot him' based on the crib biting alone. I ride him, as does my friend's daugther and the friend herself, and a nicer horse you would not want to know. He's helped me learn to ride much much better as he is so calm and willing in the school, with the most beautiful balanced way of going. I know cribbing is not pretty and I also know it reduces the horse's quality of life. But the opinion that some 'old-fashioned' horse people have expressed in relation to this particular horse - that he is not worth keeping alive if it has this problem - is just appalling, IMO.
From : Anon for this
Date : 21.04.05 7:33:00 AM
Hi All - I have a fairly excitable TB who can be prone to 'repeated behaviour patterns' when she's upset (recently marched along the fence line of her field for three days after a nightmre time with the vet, yawns LOTS when ever she feels worried).
Anyway, to cut a long story short, there is a girl who used to be at my yard who is planning to bring her new horse back next month. I haven't seen this horse but she has already told me that she cribs and wind-sucks.
I have heard rumours of horses copying this behaviour and worry that, as my girl can be a bit 'compulsive' (!) that she might end up doing it too.
I've had no experience of this at all and welcome all comments.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 7:44:00 AM
there has been some success with stable mirrors(safe ones)helping horses with this and other stable vices. My mare used to crib but with different forages and a lick and feeding adlib haylage from the floor and giving her plenty of work.(e.g. ridden most days)she has stopped cribbing altogether and when we first had her the EDT told us not to buy her as the cribbing showed on her teeth.(we had her on a trial period) I would say get rid of haynets as feeding off the floor is far better and when horse has its head down it is not thinking about cribbing.
I have heard it said that they don't copy each other and that is a misunderstanding.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 7:47:00 AM
sorry my last sentence is not well put. what I am trying to say is that I and others don't think they copy each others bad habits. Too early in the morning to make much sense sorry.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : OP
Date : 21.04.05 7:54:00 AM
Trouble is, all horses are living out. The new horse cribs and sucks on fence posts in the field
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 8:01:00 AM
According to my vet and two equine behaviourists (one an RA), it is not copied behaviour.
My horse is a part time/ex cribber and it seems to make no difference to him whether others are doing it or not.
The fact that they're living out is a big plus as it reduces the tendancy to crib anyway.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : OP
Date : 21.04.05 8:05:00 AM
Thank you, Anon 8:01:00 AM. That's what I'd always thought, but rumours started circulating and wanted to make sure!
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : Adam
Date : 21.04.05 8:42:00 AM
I agree with anons. Cribbing is mostly caused by digestive upset and lack of food. If there all living out your mare won't have any reason to crib so should be ok.
There's been alot of reseach done by Paul mcgreevy (amoung others) into sterotypies and no one has been able to show that horses copy each other. Infact no one;s even sure horses mimic each other at all in a learning sense
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 8:48:00 AM
Adam. you are such a bore.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : sula's mum
Date : 21.04.05 8:49:00 AM
LOL could the wing sucking horse be Pegasus
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 8:54:00 AM
Anon 8:48 actually Adam is very informative and knows what he is talking about!
I had a thorougbred mare that crib bites and weaves excessively when we got her, my son's purchase not mine, it is as Adam says a digestive upset and lack of food, she even used to weave excessively in the field. I never believed she could be cured, we went a different route though, I am lucky to have exceptionally good grazing, having just moved house to get it, she never looked back, even when stabled now she has no vices. We have also put her to my stallion who I think she has a lifetime bond with now.
I have other horses, one who did mimic for about five minutes because he was unhappy about something but he has never repeated this action, so I wouldn't worry.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : sunny's mum
Date : 21.04.05 9:02:00 AM
I learnt a lot about this whilst doing my degree at hartpury. My behaviour lecturer was Amanda Waters who's done many studies in crib-biting with the likes of C. Nicol and P. McGreevy. There is absolutely no evidence that the stereotypy can be copied but the reason you see many horses on the same yard performing the behaviour is probabaly because of sub-optimal welfare conditions at the stables (e.g lack of turn-out, high concentrate/low forage diets etc).
There is a small possibility that foals may copy their mother's if they crib-bite but this has yet to be researched.
The reason horses are able to copy behaviours such as door kicking but not crib-biting is because the horse can visibly see a reward for door kicking i.e kicks at feed time so gets food, therefore it has the motivation to perform the behaviour. The horse cannot see what a crib-biting horse gets as a reward so sees no point in doing it himself. Also crib-biting is quite a complex behaviour so is more difficult to copy.
Hope this makes sense and is of some use:)
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : 8.01
Date : 21.04.05 10:11:00 AM
Would also suggest that your friend consider blood tests for her cribber - many have underlying stomach ulcers which are the cause of the behaviour. Hence why many competition horses, with low forage and turn out diets, and high stress, are often found to be cribbers.
Note that cribbing and wind sucking is more often related to a physical imbalance than weaving which is more a sign of mental trauma.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : Nina V
Date : 21.04.05 10:30:00 AM
Search the threads on here for Settlex it has lots of good points about this in there.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 12:10:00 AM
I have an Anglo-Arab on loan, he cribs for England and yet he is on a high fibre diet, good grass and more haylage than he can eat. We change his field every month so always has good grass and a change of scenery. He is tuurned out every day and will soon be out 24/7. He started the habit while at Equine college for a term with his owner, they think due to the stress of no turn out but seems to have got worse with us because we have all post and rail fencing. He seems worse at feed times and when he comes to a fence for a drink out of the trough. I will try feeding him his haylage on the floor to see if that helps.
He was a rescue and has been deprived of food as a youngster do you think thats why he cribs most at feed times and while eating?
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 8:23:00 PM
up
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : KAS
Date : 21.04.05 8:40:00 PM
I have a T/B, he cribs for England and yet is out 24/7, on good good grass with company. I've seen him cribbing on the fences in a field of good grass with company. He is with 5 horses, 2 of them youngsters, who have never copied any of his behaviour. I don't believe that horses copy this behaviours, I also have a weaver and none of the youngsters copy this either.
JUst to add T/B was rescued from a racing yard where his cribbing probably started, he has been tested for ulcers and his life syle has changed but he still does it.
He's not hurting me or anyone else, so I just let him get on with it
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From :
Date : 21.04.05 9:24:00 PM
I also have a TB x ID who cribs for england. he's out 24 x 7 and has been for 2 years. None of my other 4 have copied, they just look at his as if he's nuts. Not even my youngster.
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : Babs
Date : 21.04.05 10:13:00 PM
Interesting comments, having had many horses over the years, I have come to the conclusion that if a horse gives me 100% while competing, schooling, hacking etc what it does in its own time is up to him.
Stable vices are not learned from others, they develop over time wether due to circumstances or other reasons, they are in my opinion a horses safety valve. I sometimes wonder if the horse that shows great signs of stress would not be better if it cribbed or windsucked, at least when a horse does these things he is coping with his own stress in his own way!!!!
Subject : re:- Crib Biting & Wing Sucking
From : dlogan
Date : 22.04.05 6:35:00 AM
My friend's horse wind sucks for England as well. My horse has been with him in close contact for three years now. We've moved them around to different yards and so he's been with lots of other horses, a few, like mine, consistently and lots of others for varying lengths of time. None of the others have started wind sucking. This lady's other horse has been with him almost from birth I think, as a companion, so around him her whole life. She would seem to be the 'most impressionable' if you see what I mean and exposed to the behavior since birth. She hasn't taken up wind sucking either, though she does weave a bit with separation anxiety, so seems a bit prone to stereotypies herself. As for wind sucking as a vice, this guy was on the verge of being destoyed for various reasons, when my friend took him on. She has also had several other people say 'I would shoot him' based on the crib biting alone. I ride him, as does my friend's daugther and the friend herself, and a nicer horse you would not want to know. He's helped me learn to ride much much better as he is so calm and willing in the school, with the most beautiful balanced way of going. I know cribbing is not pretty and I also know it reduces the horse's quality of life. But the opinion that some 'old-fashioned' horse people have expressed in relation to this particular horse - that he is not worth keeping alive if it has this problem - is just appalling, IMO.