Post by Admin on Aug 2, 2005 9:23:01 GMT 1
Subject : WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Holly
Date : 08.12.03 12:47:00 AM
Was just mulling over the answer to the above.I've spoken with quite a few people who all wonder the same thing. Its common knowledge that the liver regenerates very quickly.So for instance if a horse had liver damage from ragwort if the liver was detoxified so that it was not over loaded and not running on overload what is it that actually stops it from regenerating as it would do in another case?
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : polly
Date : 08.12.03 12:50:00 AM
presumably the liver can only take a certain amount of damage - after all people die of chirrosis of the liver and that is a gradual build up of damage too.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Holly
Date : 08.12.03 12:57:00 AM
yes understand that but that wouldn't explain why it doesn't start to regenerate in the months/years inbetween?
Its something thats always baffled me!
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : A nice anon who's at work!
Date : 08.12.03 1:05:00 PM
As I understand it, the liver can take a certain amount of damage, regenerating to compensate. However, it can't regenerate forever, and (usually) by the time any symptoms of ragwort poisoning appear, too much of the liver has been damaged for it to recover. Think this is why they're trying to develop an early warning test for ragwort poisoning/liver damage.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Jenny (& Kite)
Date : 08.12.03 1:06:00 PM
I think its got something to do with the toxins and other bits in the ragwort itself. I think it was something like alkoloids in the ragwort actually inhibit the liver regeneration forever so the body cant reverse the damage.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From :
Date : 08.12.03 1:06:00 PM
The liver can regenerate after ragwort poisoning, but since horses use such a small percentage of their liver by the time symptoms are shown there is usually too much damage done.
My horses are on fields where we just can't stop the ragwort (pull it up every single day!), vet advised I feed a liver tonic in the hope that it will help the liver to repair any damage that is done. One horse is 26 and still going strong so it seems to work.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 1:08:00 PM
Hepatocytes (or liver cells) are excellent at regenerating themselves but the alkaloid toxin in ragwort (pyrrolizidine) stops the regeneration mechanism of the hepatocytes so basically they can't reproduce themselves and repair the liver. Effectively the liver cells are poisoned so you do not get the liver regeneration. The problem with ragwort poisoning is that you won't see the symptoms until 75% of the liver is damaged and usually by this time it is too late to save the horse.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : A different nice anon
Date : 08.12.03 1:09:00 PM
But surely, given that the liver regenerates, the odd bit of ragwort eaten from time to time shouldn't add up. How to the alkaloids inhibit liver regeneration; and how do they stay in the bidy to inhibit it permenantly?
This is something I have been struggling to comprehend for years so thank you for posting this Holly.
Also, realistically, do any horses with severe liver damage to the point of serious clinical symptoms survive (regardless of the cause of the damage)?
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Jenny (& Kite)
Date : 08.12.03 1:15:00 PM
Not sure if this is correct (my memory is so bad!) but I thought the alkaloids dont just affect the cells, it affects the genes responsible for cell division. This means the liver cells grow but cant divide so they kind of fester, die and release toxins that the surrounding cells ingest and the cycle just continues.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Geneticist
Date : 08.12.03 1:29:00 PM
I think it unlikely that the alakaloids would affect the genes respomsible for regeneration of the liver. After all the genes are in every single cell, not just in the liver but in the whole body. I find it inconciveable that the DNA in every single cell is altered by the alkaloids.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Jenny (& Kite)
Date : 08.12.03 1:32:00 PM
OK well, I found this on a website from a vet so I guess its a valid thought! PAs = the alkaloids
Effects on the horse
The PAs are rapidly absorbed from the gastro-intestinal tract. They pass to the liver where they are broken down (dehydrogenated ) to produce toxic compounds called pyrroles. Horses and cattle are thought to be more susceptible than sheep and goats to the toxic effects of the PAs. This may be due partly to species differences in the metabolism of the PAs to the toxic pyrroles.
It is thought that the pyrroles disrupt the cell cycle by damaging key genes which control cell division.6 Consequently, the hepatocytes are unable to divide and become large cells called megalocytes which are one of the characteristic features of chronic PA poisoning. When the megalocytes die they release toxins which may be taken up by neighbouring cells. The dead cells are replaced by fibrosis, which may itself cause further damage to other cells. Thus the damage to the liver is progressive.
After eating the fresh or dried plant, signs may not be seen for several months. The liver is able to maintain normal function until at least two-thirds of the organ has been destroyed. So the ragwort toxins are able to wreak havoc in the liver without being detected. By the time the horse shows signs of liver failure the damage is so extensive that treatment is not possible. Changes in the liver may take months to develop after the onset of ragwort consumption. Acute poisoning (ie when large amounts of ragwort are eaten in a short time), has been reported but is rare.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 1:32:00 PM
Pyrrolizidine is metabolised in the liver and the metabolities produced as a result react with the DNA and have an antimitotic effect (cell division).
Cells divide to replace other cells by mitotic division. This is basically a stage by stage division until you get an identical new cell. It is thought that the pyrrolizidine metabolites stop this mitotic division so the cell can't divide.
Horses that do eat a little every so often are progressively poisoned and slowly but surely the liver becomes so damaged it can't function correctly and the symptoms of ragwort poionsing appear. A tiny bit of ragwort every now and again might not seem much but you have to think of how strong this poison is and the damage it does to the liver each time it is ingested. Thhe pyrrolizidine metabolites are altering DNA in the liver cells and the damaged cells become enlarged (called megalocytes). When these enlarged cells die they release toxins which are more often than not taken up by other liver cells. The dead cells are replaced by collagen deposits so you end up with fibrosis (or cirrhosis) and this plus the toxins released from the dead cells cause progressive damage. So it is not just a few cells that get damaged but the other cells are healthy enough to replace them. The effect on the liver from a bit of ragwort is serious enough to cause progressive damage.
There is a chance a horse could survive after 75% of liver damage but i would say ech case if different and you have to think of the quality of life of the horse.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 1:35:00 PM
Geneticist - it is thought that the metabolites of pyrrolizide (pyrroles) form crosslinks with the DNA in the hepatocytes which has an antimitotic effect.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Geneticist
Date : 08.12.03 1:44:00 PM
Thank you Faye.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Marianne
Date : 08.12.03 3:20:00 PM
Up for Holly as this is one of the best threads I have read!
Good thinking Holly. I for one will be printing out this info.
Am I sad, or just love my animals???
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 4:36:00 PM
I am really pleased this idea for a thread came up. I think it is important for everyone to understand exactly how the ragwort toxins work and just how much damage they can cause. It really makes the issue stand out, so hopefully more and more people will take it seriously.
Dr Knottenbelt at Liverpool Uni are trying to come up with a simple screening test that can detect ragwort poisoning early. Unfortunatley there is no such test available at the moment you can only tell when it is too late and the liver is more than likely beyond repair. What i find appaling is that they do not have the funding for such research work. I would have thought that there would have been a huge fund raising campaign or somethings similar from also sorts of groups/charities etc to raise the money for this work to go ahead. I don't understand why the equine world (those capable of raising money) should not see this as a priority. Many owners get caught out because there can be traces of ragwort in the hay and you just wouldn't know. If this test were created and made available it could save many lives. So if anyone has won the lottery recently and fancies giving a large chunk of it away to the research project please do
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 4:38:00 PM
Sorry that was supposed to be Dt Knottenbelt and a team at Liverpool University. I have just come in from the cold so i am defrosting at the moment and i think that includes my brain!!
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Sarah Sorrel
Date : 08.12.03 5:05:00 PM
I've been meaning to ask the OP's question for ages too!
This is fascinating, but I don't quit understand the overall message - are you saying that if a horse has ingested a small amount of ragwort at some time in its life, the damage that causes will continue to cause more and more damage? Sorry to be dim. If that is the case, I feel dreadfully worried, because the stuff grows up everywhere and I cant always be sure I get to it before the horses do.
What would be the point of screening though? If it is incurable. Sorry to be dim. If something could be done at the early stages, shouldn't we be doing it anyway, just in case?
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : K
Date : 08.12.03 8:20:00 PM
I am asking the same question as Sarah Sorrel above. If we say had our horses blood tested annually could we know if the liver had problems and treat it.?
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Kim
Date : 08.12.03 9:43:00 PM
Yes a horse can be tested and your vet can see if there is any stress (damage) to the liver.
Our boy had liver damage, to a severity to show signs, but his has rejenerated and he is fine now, but it was a chemical poisoning that caused his and not ragwort. The vet said that we were very very lucky and if the same amount of damage had been caused by ragwort then he would not have made a full recovery, that ragwort damage is self-perpetuating therefore resulting in cirrohsis (sorry about spelling).
I was led to believe that upto 80% of the liver could be damaged and regenerate given the correct support, our boy the vet believes was about 65% damaged. But 18 months on and you would not know, but we were the lucky ones.
It is very important to give the correct diet, ie, low protein, high carb, low fat. With liver support herbs (we used Roger at Trinity) but vet recommended milk thistle.
Sorry this is alot less technical than the other posts, but I prefer my vet to spell things out for me:-))
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 9:51:00 PM
The problem as it stands at the moment is that there is no screening test so the effects of ragwort poisoning isn't normally detected until serious and often fatal liver damage has occurred.
The idea of the screening test it that horses can be routinely checked to identify any of the poison in the blood. If there is a positive result then feed/hay can be tested to find the source of the ragwort unless it is obvious that it is growing in the grazing areas.
It is incruable (in most cases) once the symptoms have developed but if it can be caught early enough i.e. with the routine screening test then measures can be used to support the liver and aid recovery. The usual course of action is to feed a diet high in B vitamins (oral Bvits can be given). A single dose of cortisone is sometimes used and anabolic steroids are also used to improve hepatocyte regeneration.
Molassed sugar beet and small but frequent amounts of simple sugars and carbohydrates are advised as well. This takes the pressure off the liver by avoiding the breakdown of glycogen and keeps the insulin/glucose peaks and troughs reduced. Protein should be slightly restricted and small but frequent amounts of high quality protein should be fed.
Vitmain E should be increased but care should be taken to not give too much Vit A,D and K. High levels of copper should be avoided and extra zinc can be fed to help prevent the collagen accumulation and it is thought to inhibit copper absorption. I also read in a D&H leaflet that vinegar (cider vinegar) could help to clear up the ammonia in the blood thus taking the strain off the liver.
So yes if the poison is detected early then measures can be taken to support the liver and increase the activity of the hepatocytes.
Sarah Sorrel - if a horse has eaten ragwort once in its life at some point i would not worry about it as it would have caused minimal damage that the liver can cope with. If the horse is eating a little bit every now and again you will get accumulative damage but it may be sometime i.e. a few years before you see the symptoms.
I have no concrete proof of this but i know that Milk Thistle is supposed to be exremely good for the liver and is an excellent source of antioxidants so if you are worried you could try this.
At the moment your vet can do a blood test that looks at certain levels of liver enzymes in the blood. The results of this will give you an idea of the health of the liver. If you are worried then this is another option to try.
Sorry to ramble and i hope this helps.
P.S. if the spelling is terrible i apologise in advance!!!
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Rosy
Date : 09.12.03 8:48:00 AM
There's an interesting letter on www.ainsworths.com. Go to their online magazine and "Horses and Homeopathy", there's a story about a horse who was booked to be destroyed because of very advanced ragwort poisoning and saved by friends and homeopathy.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Holly
Date : 09.12.03 10:10:00 AM
Faye, fully agree about the milk thistle, its proven to work on the liver and detoxifing the body, my girlie when mad for thistles after coming home from 2 ops for which she was given a HUGE array of drugs.Homoeopathic lycopodium is also very good. One of my horses was photosensitive after being treated she was able to go out in the vlazing sun just 6 weeks later. The reason I started this thread was to see what views there were as it appears even some vets can't seside as some feel it can be REPAIRED if caught in time.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 09.12.03 11:36:00 AM
Thanks for starting the thread Holly it was a brilliant idea.
I think when the liver is 75%+ damaged the prognosis is usually poor. This of course doesn't mean that every horse will definately die as a result and it is judged on a case by case basis. I suppose if some vets have tried to treat it and failed but other have and succeded then the opinions will differ.
I was chatting to the herb guy at D&H and he had some heartstring pulling stories to tell about the benefits of Milk Thistle. I use Milk Thistle as a source of antioxidants during the winter and even though there are other antioxidant products i choose this one due to its beneficial effects on the liver.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Holly
Date : 09.12.03 2:13:00 PM
odviously it has some bearing too on the amount of other toxins in the body and those put in after too such as chemical worming and other medical drugs, I'm amazed at the response to this thread and think its a real shame that horse magazines don't cover it enough.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 09.12.03 5:12:00 PM
I agree, i am sure if more people knew the hows and whys of the this plants effect on the horse it would hopefully make people more aware.
D&H do a great series of leaflets called EquiTalk and issue 3 is all about Ragwort and the Liver. It may be worth ringing them to see if you can get sent a copy. They have also done an excellent one on laminitis. All the info but without them pushing their products at you.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From :
Date : 09.12.03 8:08:00 PM
what are the signs of liver damage/degeneration please?
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From :
Date : 10.12.03 8:51:00 AM
Shakey animals, photosensitivity, not too interested in food, loss of weight, there are more but I'm afraid I'm not up on them.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From :
Date : 10.12.03 10:29:00 AM
Loss in appitite, therefore loss in weight, the whites of the eyes go yellow from jaundice, and if severe the horse can go blind. I rescused a 9 month old pony which was in a terrible state. I fed him up, and 8 months later he was a happy chubby little pony. 2 months later he was off his food so I called the vet, though I thought he just might be teething. The blood test came back 4 days later, the same day I went out to the field to bring him in only for him to came cantering up and crash stright into the gate. When the vet came out, he was shaking, sweating, cannoning into the stable walls as he could not see, and his breathing was really hard and rasping. The vet then told me the blood test showed that he had liver problems, and he had gone blind. He went stright into hospital onto a lot of drugs and a drip. He stablised, and came home after a week, but had to stay indoors for another 10 weeks, having blood tests and biopsys every 2 weeks. Unfortunalty his liver did not recover and he had to be put down. Although we do not have any ragwort, he had been in a field before I got him, where ragwort was all there was. The vet seemed to think that his liver had been very badly damaged then, and although he seemed healthy, something he had eaten out of the hedgerow, or a mouldy bit of hay had tipped the liver over the edge so it stopped regenerating. I cannot stress how much pain it caused me to call the desision to have him put down, and hope that anyone reading this who does not clear their field of the stuff may think twice next summer.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : j
Date : 29.07.05 1:28:00 PM
Great thread! (at last!) Thank you op and all who have contributed.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Holly
Date : 29.07.05 7:04:00 PM
Gosh! I started this thread over 18 months ago! good to see it up again though with all the dreaded weed in full bloom, land around here is COVERED in the stuff.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From :
Date : 29.07.05 10:11:00 PM
Up because everyone should be fully aware of just how dangerous ragwort can be.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : JS
Date : 29.07.05 10:56:00 PM
Not Ragwort, but still interesting RE Chemical damage from medicines, etc.
My horse had an awful dose of ringworm and had 2 courses of fungacide medicine (the stuff not to be used by women of child bearing age). He got over the ringworm, but didn't seem very energetic and I spoke to someone who said the stuff is very toxic to the liver and to give him some Restore from Gobal Herbs - which certainly seemed to help and I told the vet about it as well, so she recommends it too.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Anon for now
Date : 29.07.05 11:17:00 PM
Was dealing with three rescued ponies where owners were being prosecuted by RSPCA. They were all youngsters and all showed signs of liver damage due to ragwort poisoning. Two were borderline ie little chance of recovery, the other was slightly better. The field where the horses were illegally grazing was covered in ragwort and little else.
Later an older mare was recovered from same field and had severe liver damage. Trouble is, where grazing is so poor, the horses will eat anything.
Milk thistle definitely helps support liver function, but severe damage is irreparable, sadly.
From : Holly
Date : 08.12.03 12:47:00 AM
Was just mulling over the answer to the above.I've spoken with quite a few people who all wonder the same thing. Its common knowledge that the liver regenerates very quickly.So for instance if a horse had liver damage from ragwort if the liver was detoxified so that it was not over loaded and not running on overload what is it that actually stops it from regenerating as it would do in another case?
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : polly
Date : 08.12.03 12:50:00 AM
presumably the liver can only take a certain amount of damage - after all people die of chirrosis of the liver and that is a gradual build up of damage too.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Holly
Date : 08.12.03 12:57:00 AM
yes understand that but that wouldn't explain why it doesn't start to regenerate in the months/years inbetween?
Its something thats always baffled me!
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : A nice anon who's at work!
Date : 08.12.03 1:05:00 PM
As I understand it, the liver can take a certain amount of damage, regenerating to compensate. However, it can't regenerate forever, and (usually) by the time any symptoms of ragwort poisoning appear, too much of the liver has been damaged for it to recover. Think this is why they're trying to develop an early warning test for ragwort poisoning/liver damage.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Jenny (& Kite)
Date : 08.12.03 1:06:00 PM
I think its got something to do with the toxins and other bits in the ragwort itself. I think it was something like alkoloids in the ragwort actually inhibit the liver regeneration forever so the body cant reverse the damage.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From :
Date : 08.12.03 1:06:00 PM
The liver can regenerate after ragwort poisoning, but since horses use such a small percentage of their liver by the time symptoms are shown there is usually too much damage done.
My horses are on fields where we just can't stop the ragwort (pull it up every single day!), vet advised I feed a liver tonic in the hope that it will help the liver to repair any damage that is done. One horse is 26 and still going strong so it seems to work.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 1:08:00 PM
Hepatocytes (or liver cells) are excellent at regenerating themselves but the alkaloid toxin in ragwort (pyrrolizidine) stops the regeneration mechanism of the hepatocytes so basically they can't reproduce themselves and repair the liver. Effectively the liver cells are poisoned so you do not get the liver regeneration. The problem with ragwort poisoning is that you won't see the symptoms until 75% of the liver is damaged and usually by this time it is too late to save the horse.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : A different nice anon
Date : 08.12.03 1:09:00 PM
But surely, given that the liver regenerates, the odd bit of ragwort eaten from time to time shouldn't add up. How to the alkaloids inhibit liver regeneration; and how do they stay in the bidy to inhibit it permenantly?
This is something I have been struggling to comprehend for years so thank you for posting this Holly.
Also, realistically, do any horses with severe liver damage to the point of serious clinical symptoms survive (regardless of the cause of the damage)?
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Jenny (& Kite)
Date : 08.12.03 1:15:00 PM
Not sure if this is correct (my memory is so bad!) but I thought the alkaloids dont just affect the cells, it affects the genes responsible for cell division. This means the liver cells grow but cant divide so they kind of fester, die and release toxins that the surrounding cells ingest and the cycle just continues.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Geneticist
Date : 08.12.03 1:29:00 PM
I think it unlikely that the alakaloids would affect the genes respomsible for regeneration of the liver. After all the genes are in every single cell, not just in the liver but in the whole body. I find it inconciveable that the DNA in every single cell is altered by the alkaloids.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Jenny (& Kite)
Date : 08.12.03 1:32:00 PM
OK well, I found this on a website from a vet so I guess its a valid thought! PAs = the alkaloids
Effects on the horse
The PAs are rapidly absorbed from the gastro-intestinal tract. They pass to the liver where they are broken down (dehydrogenated ) to produce toxic compounds called pyrroles. Horses and cattle are thought to be more susceptible than sheep and goats to the toxic effects of the PAs. This may be due partly to species differences in the metabolism of the PAs to the toxic pyrroles.
It is thought that the pyrroles disrupt the cell cycle by damaging key genes which control cell division.6 Consequently, the hepatocytes are unable to divide and become large cells called megalocytes which are one of the characteristic features of chronic PA poisoning. When the megalocytes die they release toxins which may be taken up by neighbouring cells. The dead cells are replaced by fibrosis, which may itself cause further damage to other cells. Thus the damage to the liver is progressive.
After eating the fresh or dried plant, signs may not be seen for several months. The liver is able to maintain normal function until at least two-thirds of the organ has been destroyed. So the ragwort toxins are able to wreak havoc in the liver without being detected. By the time the horse shows signs of liver failure the damage is so extensive that treatment is not possible. Changes in the liver may take months to develop after the onset of ragwort consumption. Acute poisoning (ie when large amounts of ragwort are eaten in a short time), has been reported but is rare.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 1:32:00 PM
Pyrrolizidine is metabolised in the liver and the metabolities produced as a result react with the DNA and have an antimitotic effect (cell division).
Cells divide to replace other cells by mitotic division. This is basically a stage by stage division until you get an identical new cell. It is thought that the pyrrolizidine metabolites stop this mitotic division so the cell can't divide.
Horses that do eat a little every so often are progressively poisoned and slowly but surely the liver becomes so damaged it can't function correctly and the symptoms of ragwort poionsing appear. A tiny bit of ragwort every now and again might not seem much but you have to think of how strong this poison is and the damage it does to the liver each time it is ingested. Thhe pyrrolizidine metabolites are altering DNA in the liver cells and the damaged cells become enlarged (called megalocytes). When these enlarged cells die they release toxins which are more often than not taken up by other liver cells. The dead cells are replaced by collagen deposits so you end up with fibrosis (or cirrhosis) and this plus the toxins released from the dead cells cause progressive damage. So it is not just a few cells that get damaged but the other cells are healthy enough to replace them. The effect on the liver from a bit of ragwort is serious enough to cause progressive damage.
There is a chance a horse could survive after 75% of liver damage but i would say ech case if different and you have to think of the quality of life of the horse.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 1:35:00 PM
Geneticist - it is thought that the metabolites of pyrrolizide (pyrroles) form crosslinks with the DNA in the hepatocytes which has an antimitotic effect.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Geneticist
Date : 08.12.03 1:44:00 PM
Thank you Faye.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Marianne
Date : 08.12.03 3:20:00 PM
Up for Holly as this is one of the best threads I have read!
Good thinking Holly. I for one will be printing out this info.
Am I sad, or just love my animals???
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 4:36:00 PM
I am really pleased this idea for a thread came up. I think it is important for everyone to understand exactly how the ragwort toxins work and just how much damage they can cause. It really makes the issue stand out, so hopefully more and more people will take it seriously.
Dr Knottenbelt at Liverpool Uni are trying to come up with a simple screening test that can detect ragwort poisoning early. Unfortunatley there is no such test available at the moment you can only tell when it is too late and the liver is more than likely beyond repair. What i find appaling is that they do not have the funding for such research work. I would have thought that there would have been a huge fund raising campaign or somethings similar from also sorts of groups/charities etc to raise the money for this work to go ahead. I don't understand why the equine world (those capable of raising money) should not see this as a priority. Many owners get caught out because there can be traces of ragwort in the hay and you just wouldn't know. If this test were created and made available it could save many lives. So if anyone has won the lottery recently and fancies giving a large chunk of it away to the research project please do
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 4:38:00 PM
Sorry that was supposed to be Dt Knottenbelt and a team at Liverpool University. I have just come in from the cold so i am defrosting at the moment and i think that includes my brain!!
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Sarah Sorrel
Date : 08.12.03 5:05:00 PM
I've been meaning to ask the OP's question for ages too!
This is fascinating, but I don't quit understand the overall message - are you saying that if a horse has ingested a small amount of ragwort at some time in its life, the damage that causes will continue to cause more and more damage? Sorry to be dim. If that is the case, I feel dreadfully worried, because the stuff grows up everywhere and I cant always be sure I get to it before the horses do.
What would be the point of screening though? If it is incurable. Sorry to be dim. If something could be done at the early stages, shouldn't we be doing it anyway, just in case?
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : K
Date : 08.12.03 8:20:00 PM
I am asking the same question as Sarah Sorrel above. If we say had our horses blood tested annually could we know if the liver had problems and treat it.?
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Kim
Date : 08.12.03 9:43:00 PM
Yes a horse can be tested and your vet can see if there is any stress (damage) to the liver.
Our boy had liver damage, to a severity to show signs, but his has rejenerated and he is fine now, but it was a chemical poisoning that caused his and not ragwort. The vet said that we were very very lucky and if the same amount of damage had been caused by ragwort then he would not have made a full recovery, that ragwort damage is self-perpetuating therefore resulting in cirrohsis (sorry about spelling).
I was led to believe that upto 80% of the liver could be damaged and regenerate given the correct support, our boy the vet believes was about 65% damaged. But 18 months on and you would not know, but we were the lucky ones.
It is very important to give the correct diet, ie, low protein, high carb, low fat. With liver support herbs (we used Roger at Trinity) but vet recommended milk thistle.
Sorry this is alot less technical than the other posts, but I prefer my vet to spell things out for me:-))
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 08.12.03 9:51:00 PM
The problem as it stands at the moment is that there is no screening test so the effects of ragwort poisoning isn't normally detected until serious and often fatal liver damage has occurred.
The idea of the screening test it that horses can be routinely checked to identify any of the poison in the blood. If there is a positive result then feed/hay can be tested to find the source of the ragwort unless it is obvious that it is growing in the grazing areas.
It is incruable (in most cases) once the symptoms have developed but if it can be caught early enough i.e. with the routine screening test then measures can be used to support the liver and aid recovery. The usual course of action is to feed a diet high in B vitamins (oral Bvits can be given). A single dose of cortisone is sometimes used and anabolic steroids are also used to improve hepatocyte regeneration.
Molassed sugar beet and small but frequent amounts of simple sugars and carbohydrates are advised as well. This takes the pressure off the liver by avoiding the breakdown of glycogen and keeps the insulin/glucose peaks and troughs reduced. Protein should be slightly restricted and small but frequent amounts of high quality protein should be fed.
Vitmain E should be increased but care should be taken to not give too much Vit A,D and K. High levels of copper should be avoided and extra zinc can be fed to help prevent the collagen accumulation and it is thought to inhibit copper absorption. I also read in a D&H leaflet that vinegar (cider vinegar) could help to clear up the ammonia in the blood thus taking the strain off the liver.
So yes if the poison is detected early then measures can be taken to support the liver and increase the activity of the hepatocytes.
Sarah Sorrel - if a horse has eaten ragwort once in its life at some point i would not worry about it as it would have caused minimal damage that the liver can cope with. If the horse is eating a little bit every now and again you will get accumulative damage but it may be sometime i.e. a few years before you see the symptoms.
I have no concrete proof of this but i know that Milk Thistle is supposed to be exremely good for the liver and is an excellent source of antioxidants so if you are worried you could try this.
At the moment your vet can do a blood test that looks at certain levels of liver enzymes in the blood. The results of this will give you an idea of the health of the liver. If you are worried then this is another option to try.
Sorry to ramble and i hope this helps.
P.S. if the spelling is terrible i apologise in advance!!!
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Rosy
Date : 09.12.03 8:48:00 AM
There's an interesting letter on www.ainsworths.com. Go to their online magazine and "Horses and Homeopathy", there's a story about a horse who was booked to be destroyed because of very advanced ragwort poisoning and saved by friends and homeopathy.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Holly
Date : 09.12.03 10:10:00 AM
Faye, fully agree about the milk thistle, its proven to work on the liver and detoxifing the body, my girlie when mad for thistles after coming home from 2 ops for which she was given a HUGE array of drugs.Homoeopathic lycopodium is also very good. One of my horses was photosensitive after being treated she was able to go out in the vlazing sun just 6 weeks later. The reason I started this thread was to see what views there were as it appears even some vets can't seside as some feel it can be REPAIRED if caught in time.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 09.12.03 11:36:00 AM
Thanks for starting the thread Holly it was a brilliant idea.
I think when the liver is 75%+ damaged the prognosis is usually poor. This of course doesn't mean that every horse will definately die as a result and it is judged on a case by case basis. I suppose if some vets have tried to treat it and failed but other have and succeded then the opinions will differ.
I was chatting to the herb guy at D&H and he had some heartstring pulling stories to tell about the benefits of Milk Thistle. I use Milk Thistle as a source of antioxidants during the winter and even though there are other antioxidant products i choose this one due to its beneficial effects on the liver.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Holly
Date : 09.12.03 2:13:00 PM
odviously it has some bearing too on the amount of other toxins in the body and those put in after too such as chemical worming and other medical drugs, I'm amazed at the response to this thread and think its a real shame that horse magazines don't cover it enough.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Faye
Date : 09.12.03 5:12:00 PM
I agree, i am sure if more people knew the hows and whys of the this plants effect on the horse it would hopefully make people more aware.
D&H do a great series of leaflets called EquiTalk and issue 3 is all about Ragwort and the Liver. It may be worth ringing them to see if you can get sent a copy. They have also done an excellent one on laminitis. All the info but without them pushing their products at you.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From :
Date : 09.12.03 8:08:00 PM
what are the signs of liver damage/degeneration please?
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From :
Date : 10.12.03 8:51:00 AM
Shakey animals, photosensitivity, not too interested in food, loss of weight, there are more but I'm afraid I'm not up on them.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From :
Date : 10.12.03 10:29:00 AM
Loss in appitite, therefore loss in weight, the whites of the eyes go yellow from jaundice, and if severe the horse can go blind. I rescused a 9 month old pony which was in a terrible state. I fed him up, and 8 months later he was a happy chubby little pony. 2 months later he was off his food so I called the vet, though I thought he just might be teething. The blood test came back 4 days later, the same day I went out to the field to bring him in only for him to came cantering up and crash stright into the gate. When the vet came out, he was shaking, sweating, cannoning into the stable walls as he could not see, and his breathing was really hard and rasping. The vet then told me the blood test showed that he had liver problems, and he had gone blind. He went stright into hospital onto a lot of drugs and a drip. He stablised, and came home after a week, but had to stay indoors for another 10 weeks, having blood tests and biopsys every 2 weeks. Unfortunalty his liver did not recover and he had to be put down. Although we do not have any ragwort, he had been in a field before I got him, where ragwort was all there was. The vet seemed to think that his liver had been very badly damaged then, and although he seemed healthy, something he had eaten out of the hedgerow, or a mouldy bit of hay had tipped the liver over the edge so it stopped regenerating. I cannot stress how much pain it caused me to call the desision to have him put down, and hope that anyone reading this who does not clear their field of the stuff may think twice next summer.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : j
Date : 29.07.05 1:28:00 PM
Great thread! (at last!) Thank you op and all who have contributed.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Holly
Date : 29.07.05 7:04:00 PM
Gosh! I started this thread over 18 months ago! good to see it up again though with all the dreaded weed in full bloom, land around here is COVERED in the stuff.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From :
Date : 29.07.05 10:11:00 PM
Up because everyone should be fully aware of just how dangerous ragwort can be.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : JS
Date : 29.07.05 10:56:00 PM
Not Ragwort, but still interesting RE Chemical damage from medicines, etc.
My horse had an awful dose of ringworm and had 2 courses of fungacide medicine (the stuff not to be used by women of child bearing age). He got over the ringworm, but didn't seem very energetic and I spoke to someone who said the stuff is very toxic to the liver and to give him some Restore from Gobal Herbs - which certainly seemed to help and I told the vet about it as well, so she recommends it too.
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Subject : re:- WHY can't a liver repair after ragwort?
From : Anon for now
Date : 29.07.05 11:17:00 PM
Was dealing with three rescued ponies where owners were being prosecuted by RSPCA. They were all youngsters and all showed signs of liver damage due to ragwort poisoning. Two were borderline ie little chance of recovery, the other was slightly better. The field where the horses were illegally grazing was covered in ragwort and little else.
Later an older mare was recovered from same field and had severe liver damage. Trouble is, where grazing is so poor, the horses will eat anything.
Milk thistle definitely helps support liver function, but severe damage is irreparable, sadly.