Lacking in copper, the signs?

[gwenoakes]

What are the signs for the above that you would look for or notice please.
Had conflicting diagnosis from two different vets! Thanks.

[fin]

books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309039894&page=15

THere's a general thing on copper....I can tell you a lot about excess copper in people but not so sure about horses! Lack of pigmentation around eyes and mouth, coat fading (this is often due to high iron as a result of lack of copper) and lameness and feet issues (poss including laminitis) and bone and joint issues are I think part of copper deficiency. People certainly take copper supplements to help arthritis and that sort of thing, and copper deficiency might be quite common in horses due to high iron in the diet from green forage.

So I suspect a lot of what are signs of copper deficiency might be signs associated with excess other minerals (a bit like excess calcium causing magnesium deficiency). It's a pretty safe one to supplement for horses though--or you could have a hair test done, or get the forage analysed to see what the nutrient levels are?

[gwenoakes]

Thanks Finn. Saintly, Clares ID/TB was diagnosed some years ago with a copper deficiency. We gave him Coppertritian (sp) cant remember the quantity. The vet said it would do him no harm to be deficient at the time!
He was diagnosed as deficient because he lost the pigmentation around his eyes and looked like he was wearing white sunglasses, also his nose had several spots of white hair.
Today a different vet came out from another practice and said it is definitely not copper deficiency, but something that cattle and sheep get, couldnt remember what it was called and that it would do him no harm!!
Now we dont know what to think. Have looked it up on google and it seems to be general fading of the hair over the most part of the body, but from what I have read it can affect foals and lead to osteochondritis, which incidentally, my son had when he was a lot younger and they never mentioned a copper deficiency, just that his bones were growing too fast for the, think it was cartlidge to keep pace. He had his legs immobilised in plaster for months and everything was OK. So now totally confused as have read even if you have blood samples/tests taken because the 'normal' range can be so big, it is not necessarily giving you the correct diagnosis! R*ddy horses!

[gwenoakes]

Sorry forgot to add, it does appear to be connected to forage, as he has been moved this last 6 weeks and the white areas are getting bigger. Whereas when he was at one yard the white almost disappeared.

Modified to add that the remainder of his body/coat is fine, no loss of colour at all and definitely no shading.

[specialsparkle3]

One sign of copper defficiency is white spots dotted all over the horse. I had a chestnut with it once-----------looked very weird

[gwenoakes]

Thanks SS3. The only white spots are surrounding his eyes and also on his nose, but nowhere else! The vet has said today it is definitely not copper deficiency! Might add though that I have read when I googled that it does affect cattle and sheep and even goats and the vet did say that what Saintly had affected cattle. One very confused person here I will tell you.

[jen1]

hi mammy, would it be worth having all his feed stuff including soil/hay what ever tested and take it from there? i hope you get to the bottom of this, ps ive been trying to find time to ring you back ,while the kids were in bed, arrh!

[fin]

Yup, test the forage--if that's seriously copper deficient, so is he

A hair analysis test will tell you more about copper levels than blood tests--what's in the blood doesn't necessarily represent what's happening in the cells I suppose, and I *think* copper is one of the unreliable ones?

Jackie JA Taylor can mix up a yeast based copper supplement if you need one. Would it be worth ringing the vet to find out exactly what it is he's supposed to have? I mean, no illness is harmless really!

[gwenoakes]

Will have a word with Clare and go from there. My sentiments entirely re 'no illness is harmless', think thats whats got me soooo confused. Have read now it can affect the liver as well, so something needs to be sorted.
Thanks Jen, will look forward to your call lol.

[felicia]

I think epiphysitis can be related to copper deficiency as well. It sounds as though a hair test is in order.

[cuffey]

I have a grey pony (he was iron grey now almost white)
He came to us with poor feet, shoes constantly falling off
Vet suggested a Biotin, methionine zinc supplement
After using this for several months he started to lose pigment around his eyes and muzzle
Vet seemed unconcerned but we were so changed to Top Spec and pigment gradually returned although he still can look sometimes like he is wearing spectacles
So it may be that the balance of minerals is not correct like you say iron too high or maybe zinc too high
Having kept sheep they are particularly sensitive to low copper but equally can easily be overdosed. I know my land here is low in copper, cobalt and selenium.

[jen1]

im now wondeing if it starts as a pink eyes lids? anyone, we noticed ruby has now ot pink rims instead of black, im sure they used to be,

[gwenoakes]

Thanks guys. Everything has altered in the last 24 hours here (wont bore you with the long story) but we are bringing the boys home as a matter of some urgency within the next 3/4 weeks. So will not do forage tests until then, seems a bit pointless if they are moving so soon.
Saintly doesnt go pink Jen, just white. I am sure it is not what us humans get when we lose our colour as can remember from somewhere way back that you never gain the colour back again. In Saintlys case his colour does come back to a certain extent. Anyway, thanks for all your help, you have been great.

[fin]

I think horses do get the pigment back...I know iron overload causes reversible colour changes anyway.

Excess copper in people can give you green hair, apparently. How cool is that? No idea if that's reversible either, mind you......