Dominance Games

[Cheryl Walmsley]

Right, here's a contradiction for you, following my last thread, here is a completely, overanalytical question for you.

Often when we have a problem with our horse we check equipment and pain issues first, then we tend to ask whether he is fearful or is it that he just doesn't understand?

I don't think we hear much about horses who aren't fearful, and it's not that they don't understand, but they are just testing your leadership. They are an in your face kind of horse.

Firstly, do these dominance games only pop up when the human is not at their best, and therefore, when the human is feeling better and regaianed they mojo, it would be quite easy to reverse the situation. Because, the horse isn't actually wanting to be leader, he just feels he has to because the human has stopped.

Secondly, do any horses exist who want to be the leader and therefore will challenge your leadership at every juncture for the rest of your joint lives?? Deep I know.

[jo]

would you drive at 30 mph just because the sign tells you to every day you drive along that stretch? You may KNOW that's the speed limit but it's human nature to just let it slip, after a while you just do 31, 35 maybe or even dare I say it higher...

But if there was a policeman at that sign occasionally I bet you'd be more careful to obey the sign and drive at 30 in case you got caught out, you know the consequence of your action and it's not worth being caught out but then you get to know WHEN the policeman usually does his checks...so you get wise and only speed when you think you can!

I bet horses are the same! Some want a more peaceful life and have a human who doesn't always set a clear example so it may appear they're always challenging - others have more consistent owners and so lead a more peaceful life.

[Cheryl Walmsley]

but, i see people all around me who don't even attempt to be a leader to their horses, treat them like children or just amble along in horsey life quite happily. The problems they seem to suffer seem to be minor. They get their horses to shows, they win rosettes, they've never even thought about horse psychology. this sounds really pathetic now, but why, when i do my best to be IH, I have had to challenge sherbert in the past at a level which has made people around me say that he is dangerous and they are scared of him, but yet, i'm doing worst than them. I'm wondering whether my horse is a special case.

[june]

Are they testing your leadership or are they testing your consistency?

I'm not big into the leadership stuff. I think we train horses to do the things we want them to do and if we then let things slip the horse thinks what it is doing is ok. For example, I don't like horses to eat when I'm leading them to and from the field but they will ask the question every now and again. If I am consistent and say no, which usually is just slight pressure on the lead rope, then they walk along happily and don't ask the question again that trip. If I'm not paying attention and they take me by surprise and snatch some grass then they ask more often on that trip because it just worked. I don't think they are testing my leadership. I think they just asked a question and I was inconsistent and didn't answer it properly because I wasn't paying enough attention.

[indibindi]

I don't feel a constant need to assert my leadership with my horses. They know how things work around here without me having to remind them and they just naturally fall into line... but perhaps I choose horses I find easy to get on with? Who knows?

[jo]

hee, welcome to their world!

I do think some people *see* more because they want to understand more. The more you know the less you think you ever knew and now you realise how much you DON'T know - something like that!

I've recently fascinated people at my yard because I can simply tell by the look in my horse's eye when he needs to wee! I've owned him for nearly 8 years, how come it's taken me this long to recognise that! How come it's taken so long for me to recognise a challenge isn't necessarily a challenge (trying to grab at grass and then stropping if stopped on way to paddock because there isn't enough IN the paddock as there is outside) it's just his way of getting through his day and doing the best he can while attached to me!

Be careful what you teach, the horse mirrors you, all those sayings that didn't mean much to me now do.

[jen1]

sherbertdip said:

but, i see people all around me who don't even attempt to be a leader to their horses, treat them like children or just amble along in horsey life quite happily. The problems they seem to suffer seem to be minor. They get their horses to shows, they win rosettes, they've never even thought about horse psychology. this sounds really pathetic now, but why, when i do my best to be IH, I have had to challenge sherbert in the past at a level which has made people around me say that he is dangerous and they are scared of him, but yet, i'm doing worst than them. I'm wondering whether my horse is a special case.

but this is why i have the more i know the more i knew nothing,
sherbs and im sure its jis past and the situation your in with hatty and his breeding as well as his age is going through a stage of kevin the teenager he isnt far from being a normal horse again , i feel he has just got wise to whats going on, and how to get out of it, he has come from a herd situation where other folk were not so nice to him to being with the just hatty,you lost some of your mojo and the whole thing has escalated and will continue to do so until one or two things are nipped in the bud
there lots of stuff going on with him but nothing major in particular its when you add the whole thing up, by working at each problem one at a time and like june says work with the horse you have today,

[Cheryl Walmsley]

the type of behaviour i'm talking about june is, in your face, rearing, bucking, running at me, not grass eating. I would be thrilled with a bit of grass eating!!

thanks jen, i think discussions on here tonight have helped. i can remember a time, (mostly because neil has just been reminding me) when i came home every night laughing about sherbs antics, that was before i started taking it personally so that is the key. tomorrow i am going to keep reminding myself of how much he doesn't love me and think of him as a teenager who needs my help to see the right way of doing things. the second i start to wonder why he is doing this to me, i'll just come away and poke myself in the eye, shake myself warmly by the throat, and then tackle it again! wish me luck. going to post gameplan on PC thread now.

[Donnalex]

A lot of horses if not handled assertively will eventually try it on.

[l17]

My pony has some very dominant behaviour. I have owned and handled lots of horses bigger and stronger than him, so I don't think it is all me. Also the very dominant mare at our yard can't put him in his place (much to her annoyance). I was ill recently and not feeling my all. He gave me a shove with his nose and caught me off balance. From this he seemed to work out that he would be able to get away with more that day! I find that asking him to move his feet/ step back can reassert the balance without getting into a fight.

[geeup]

theres a horse on our yard which is a sod, it dosn;t matter who handles it. It slike people , somtimes they come out wrong. Sometimes they are made wrond. We have special needs people in our society, so we must accept that sometimes there is a special needs horse.

[jinglejoys]

Malaga's games started after I got bumped by a car walking him to work one day.He had been so calm about the situation that I didn't worry but now I realise that it had effected him more than he let on.He started just nudging and nipping when traffic was around which worried me because I started waiting for the nip which then turned into bites.
To top it all he developed stringhalt and would get very frustrated if I asked him to move his feet.I didn't mind because I knew he'd grow out of it so I would wait till he could move but he would really throw a tantrum because he could not do it right.
We've worked through it all now and he's so much calmer (Not Mad Malaga any more) but I always go through the moving feet games before working him.

[rj]

I do firmly believe that you as an owner have to be a leader to your horse which means being just the tiniest bit more assertive or confident than the horse.

That's the trick: don't overdo it or you insult and upset your horse, get it it slightly underdone, and you risk getting flattened.

A lot of people who don't believe in the leadership theory are actually passive leaders (June!!!!) which horses recognise and instinctively respond to.

[horsiehelen]

Sherbie A very clear message I took away from being with Susan and June was consistency. I think that is what June is trying to convey above. It doesn't matter what the action is you are dealing with it but what does matter is answering it the same each time. So the horse knows what is it and isn't allowed to do.

[june]

I used the eating grass analogy just because that was what sprung to mind but with "in your face, rearing, bucking" etc its essentially the same thing, just a little more scary! When you are with your horse do you allow him to come into your space uninvited or do you have a boundary? It may be because you've gone down the "my horse loves me route" you've allowed your horse to start disregarding your space. If you go back to some simple leading exercises making sure the horse stays out of you space and stops when you stop, walks when you walk, turns when you turn with no pressure on the lead rope then you may well start finding other things fall into place.

With some horses you can get away with allowing them to move into your space but with others you need to be stricter on that rule. I suspect that just depends on how well engrained their training is. I never really think about our polo ponies moving into my space but it is pretty instinctive to me to move them out of my space if it feels like I'm being crowded. Some of them never do that and some of them do.

Don't know about the passive leadership stuff rj. I find the more time I spend training something the better it gets and the more consistent my cues are the better it gets. I'm rather sorry about that as it takes quite a lot of effort and I'd much rather it just happened but sadly it doesn't!