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Post by dunoon12 on Jan 1, 2008 12:18:23 GMT 1
Interesting as i have had nothing but good experince with the RSPCA as everytime i have called them they have responded and rang met back with an update! lets remmebr they are not horse specialists they tend to msotly work with smaller animals but obvsiouly should care about all animals. But when it comes to horses then the ILPH should always be called, although having said that there was apost on here a little while ago saying that they weren't that good either. But its not the organisation its the inspectors or field officers that are to blame as they are meant to be the professionals! But on the whole the RSPCA do do good work and if they are not doing anything in your area then you need to keep badgering them and then threaten bad press and then they will do something!
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Post by jen1 on Jan 1, 2008 12:26:38 GMT 1
i thnk i might know of the man in question, from what i was told ? does he keep his stock on a allotment type place? if so then they arnt the only people who have tryed to intervene, its abput time happa wok up and smelt the coffee, i have applied many times to adpot a horse from them, being local and all, they seem to keep the better horses for them selves its a well known fact in the local area, i would say 30 years experience and 60 acres of my own land would qualify me to be a likly candidate, i no longer support them, i hope the bloke is banged to rights 2 years is an awful long time for a pony to suffer
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Post by horsemadpeter on Jan 1, 2008 13:36:54 GMT 1
Yeah, you are correct about the guy....anmd this has been going on for about the last 10 Years, it's only in the last 2 years that I have been giving the RSPCA and HAPPA such a bad time, but it's water off a ducks back...I have posted in different web sites this story and sent them both links to them.....and still no action
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EMW-UK
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Post by EMW-UK on Jan 1, 2008 14:11:52 GMT 1
I'm doing my level best on this horsemadpeter. The trouble is that only us seem to work on regardless over the christmas and new year period... it's like trying to wake the Kraken.. I promise you I'll be ruffling feathers tomorrow first thing. I do need some photo evidence if possible though if you can. emw
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Post by horsemadpeter on Jan 1, 2008 17:29:24 GMT 1
I sent you some piccys to the E Mail address that you sent to me by P.M. a while ago
HMP
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EMW-UK
Grand Prix Poster
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Reg Charity 1114700 LISTEN WITH YOUR SOUL
Posts: 2,629
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Post by EMW-UK on Jan 1, 2008 17:30:14 GMT 1
send again HMP they have not come through. emw xx
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Post by Donnalex on Jan 1, 2008 18:36:20 GMT 1
HMP - post them on here for all to see, they are bad enough for somebody, somewhere to get some help.
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Post by Cameo on Jan 1, 2008 21:53:52 GMT 1
I am really sorry about this pony horsemadpeter - and there are many people on here with stories as well. I do feel that we have to try to keep some sense of balance though.
The grey horse in the photo - IS thin, and he IS undernourished - but, in my opinion also, he wasn't emaciated. I'm sure he could still exhibit natural behaviour and had energy for acting out that behaviour (well done for getting him back on track incidentally!).
I would never let many horse of mine get into that state - but then that is also why we get so heated and emotional and onto our high horses when we see "thin" horses. We see a horse kept in a way that find unacceptable - but the law does not state that this is actual cruelty.
Not particularly comfortable probably, nor probably not up to a great deal of work - but actual cruelty is quite an extreme state. Cruelty is causing actual suffering - suffering is not splodging about in a muddy field, neither is irregular feeding, neither is ugly surroundings; neither is cruelt being owned by people owners we might not like or share different values with.
Before I put on my tin hat (and please READ my post fully!!!)...I rang the ILPH a few years ago about some thin horses - and two emaciated in particular- in a revoltingly muddy field (unwalkable was the footpath through it). They received a bale of hay every five days. Their access to water was almost impossible (too muddy and polluted) and they were thoroughbreds; unrugged and half-wild.
The ILPH officer was so shocked by what he saw (one could hardly walk) that he called the RSPCA who came within the hour and immediately called out a vet and a policeman (needed to remove someone else's "property"). I did explain that I hoped I wasn't being a do-gooder but it did look as though it had gone too far for these horses.
The ILPH officer told me he was glad it had gone this far as they ahd been trying to prosecute this lady for years but she always had an answer and was never quite "bad" enough in her behaviour to do so. I was kept informed throughout the case (it did go to court and she eventually admitted liability) and was a witness.
The ILPH and the RSPCA immediately removed two horses - one collapsed as we carried onto the trailer (she died in the night) and the other was put to sleep the following day.
True suffering is difficult to pinpoint - unpleasant conditions are not actual cruelty in the eyes of the law. The law is supposed to have been changed - but there is much to trickle down.
I have friends abroad who see horses in truly terrible states - earning a living for their owners and family - pain and suffering are their daily lot - mainly through ignorance and fiscal circumstances.
I think we have to maintain a sense of proportion - and as SarahW says - have "grown-up conversations".
I am not saying here that there are instances where teh RSPCA have not acted, and I am also not saying that funds may not be used as evenly as members of the public would like - but perhaps there needs to be another grown-up conversation amongst the RSPCA - as to what their main thrust actually is - and clearer guidelines about the law - for us members of the public - AND of course - plenty of education as to what constitutes fair and just treatment of animals.
Much of the RSPCA's time and finances is spent on campaigning - after all, if they don't, who does?
(Tin hat on!!)
(Modified for typos!)
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Post by jill on Jan 1, 2008 22:21:06 GMT 1
Cameo, all that you have written above WAS true and was intended to be addressed by the new Animal Welfare Act, in which animals are owed a duty of care. Problem is it isn't sufficiently defined, and until it is, the larger welfare societies seem reluctant to stick their necks out and take some test cases.
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Post by Cameo on Jan 2, 2008 0:10:50 GMT 1
Thank you for that Jill - I guess the legal definition will get stuck on what constitutes "care". Opinion is so divided on horse care anyway! The Five Freedoms - that I believe to be what animals should be able to have - are in many cases denied to many horses in so-called 5* homes aren't they!!
The Five Freedoms were set out in 1979 by the FAWC (I have italicised the area that will be so difficult for courts to work with):
Five Freedoms The welfare of an animal includes its physical and mental state and we consider that good animal welfare implies both fitness and a sense of well-being. Any animal kept by man, must at least, be protected from unnecessary suffering. We believe that an animal's welfare, whether on farm, in transit, at market or at a place of slaughter should be considered in terms of 'five freedoms'. These freedoms define ideal states rather than standards for acceptable welfare. They form a logical and comprehensive framework for analysis of welfare within any system together with the steps and compromises necessary to safeguard and improve welfare within the proper constraints of an effective livestock industry.
1. Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour.
2. Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area.
3. Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.
4. Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind.
5. Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering.
FAWC is the Farm Animal Welfare Council.
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Post by Donnalex on Jan 2, 2008 10:34:39 GMT 1
That chestnut pony can hardly be described as 'in full health and vigour'. Surely it also is not free from the discomfort of hunger?
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Post by dunoon12 on Jan 2, 2008 14:30:34 GMT 1
The other problme here as well is that although the relevant organisations can act in relation to the five freedoms and act a lot earlier than having to wait for it to get so bad before they suffer they can now interven before the real suffering begins. But that means leaving notes and getting owners to make contact and working with these oprganisations to improve the horses wellbeing. But the government have done little really to give powers to the RSPCA to act properly afterall its a charity yet in parts of the states they have an animal police force that act virtually in the same way as the police, they have powers of arrest and all sorts and that is what we should have here. The rspca should be given far more powers than they have been given. The animal welfare act has been implemented in full in scotland but guess what the government here in england dont like to be quite so robust - no surprise there then!
I saw a load of horses in a field full of horse poo yet they were fat and in reasonable health, the field was quite large but clearly never poo picked and they were getting hay and had access to water! should i contact the RSPCA or ILPH for advice? not sure havnt made up my mind as the horses themselves were fine, just the field they were in were carpeted with poo! For my own peice of mind i will ring them.
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Post by rosetila on Jan 2, 2008 14:43:12 GMT 1
Its the law thats the problem, its too loose... I've had a few probs with the RSPCA, and wouldnt contact them at all regarding cruelty, I would recommend the ILPH though... Putting a cigerette out on a foal, thats made me feel sick.. ba****ds!
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Post by jill on Jan 2, 2008 15:23:59 GMT 1
Why would you waste a welfare organisations time reporting horses in a field full of poo (it could have been mine lol) so long as the horses are in good nick? That is crying wolf - not everyone keeps their horses to the same standards, doesn't mean they are welfare issues, any more than a horse not wearing a rug or not having daily hay. There are lots of people on here whose horses are unrugged and not fed hay - for all the right reasons, just as there are lots of people, like me, who regard winter turnout as an exercise area and simply don't have the time to poo pick. Of course if anyone would like to volunteer to poo pick 6 acres and 9 horses daily, you would be more than welcome!!
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Post by wally on Jan 2, 2008 17:59:17 GMT 1
I never poo pick, you can't get a tracor or quad or wheelbarrow on the land, and with 200 acres of hill to find the poos in they just have to be left for the hoddies to pick through.
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