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Post by SarahW on Jan 1, 2007 18:59:30 GMT 1
The problem is that we can be gloriously unaware of the risks - especially if we have tried something once and it has worked beautifully. Sometimes not being aware of the risks makes it more likely that it will work because then there is less tension in your body to transmit to the horse. Ignorance is bliss and all that.
Since I started my business I have become much more aware of Health and Safety regulation and the need to do a constant risk assessment of the work I do. Nevertheless I do still take risks - after all horses are a constant risk - but I do try to think things through before I try them out. I have no problem with anyone offering advice as long as they don't mind when someone who has had the benefit of experience comes along and points out the pitfalls. We all need to make sure that we don't just offer a knee jerk reaction to a situation and fire off a reply without thinking it through.
We should take heart from reading Mark Rashid's books where he openly admits to having made all sorts of mistakes and having learned a lot of things the hard way.
On the subject of horses' names again - never call a horse something you don't want it to be - Rascal, Boss and Killer, all come to mind. Petra Perkins started off as Petra Petrovski and she has always been under the misapprehension that she is part of some ancient Russian aristocracy whereas really she is part Welsh and part Yorkshire horse.
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Post by janetgeorge on Jan 1, 2007 19:22:26 GMT 1
The problem is that we can be gloriously unaware of the risks - especially if we have tried something once and it has worked beautifully. Speak for yourself! ;D I would never recommend anything I had only tried once - whether it had worked or not! And when I try something 'new' (which isn't very often because there really is very little now that IS new) I think through EVERY possible 'downside' before I do. IF it works with nothing going wrong, I put it down to a little good management and a little luck! The last 'new' thing I tried was about 18 months ago with a rather nice big 4 year old Warmblood mare we were backing for a client. Everything went very well up to the actual leading forward with rider on back stage. We ALWAYS lead forward a couple of strides, stop, often get off and back on, lead a few more strides etc. - all this was fine until we got to the stage where she was being led forward for about 8 strides of walk. At this point she exploded, taking off broncking furiously. She did this two days running - despite considerable care. So my rider suggested that instead of leading her forward we drove her out on the lunge - fast! I didn't like the idea at all - I was fairly sure I'd struggle to hold her if she had 30 feet of lunge line to go with - and that she'd dump him. But couldn't think of a better solution so we tried it. He hung onto the neck strap - didn't even have the reins. And it worked a treat - she trotted extremely fast for 3 circuits and then started listening to the voice aids and slowed down. We had no more trouble with her. It WOULDN'T work with all horses and I certainly haven't adopted it as a 'method' - but if the circumstances seemed 'right'. I'd certainly try it again. The reason it worked (I think) was that she had an extreme reaction to the 'predator on her back'. While led, she felt trapped - and so the tension built until she exploded. When she was 'free' (albeit on the lunge) and could run, she felt more in control.
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Post by SarahW on Jan 1, 2007 19:56:21 GMT 1
Hi Janet - I don't think I meant you as it is obvious that you have had plenty of chances to try out all sorts of techniques and work out which work the best for you. The horses are brilliant because just when you think you have an answer for everything they come up with something different. My Exmoor stallion is the first wild pony I have ever dealt with that actually likes you to approach him from directly in front and put the headcollar on starting at the ears.
On the courses Kelly talks about self fulfilling prophecies and old wive's tales. Once upon a time a horse just happened to stop rearing after someone had hit it over the head with an egg. As a result all of us have heard the advice that the best thing to do with a rearing horse is to hit it over the head with an egg. Apparently the horse thinks that it has hit the sky and that it's head is bleeding (the sort of Chickin'Lickin Approach to horsemanship). As I doubt i could get on a horse without squashing the egg in my pocket it isn't a technique that I have tried.
On the other hand I have suggested something fairly innocuous to a vet having tried it only once and he is now recommending it to all the vets in his practise - admittedly there doesn't seem to be a health and safety implication to it. When attempting to insert an intravenous needle into a horse I have found that it helped if I brushed the horse with a dandy brush at the same time. The repetition and stimulation of the brush seemed to distract the horse's attention or simply kept his nerve endings busy/confused and the vet was able to inject a normally fractious horse very easily. Perhaps we should put up suggested ways of dealing with things and postively ask people to comment on whether they can see any pitfalls.
Your story put me in mind of one of the gentler commoners on the Forest. Before he backs any horse he leads it out off another (big) horse and they go out for a few weeks and get quite fit. After a while they go everywhere at trot. The day the rider gets on the first time, they immediately set off at trot as if they mean it and the horse doesn't get time to think. On the other hand there was another one round here who used a W rope so that if the horse set off too quickly they would yank up it's leg and down it would go. Horrendous. Even so, he is still spoken of with tremendous respect (not by me!).
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Gingersmum
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Life is sweet
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Post by Gingersmum on Jan 1, 2007 20:03:54 GMT 1
Hey SarahW I have both a 'Sunny' and a 'Molly' (though her name was changed to Polly as we already had a Molly on the yard) They are both lovely old biddy's and will be extremely indignant to be described as jezabelles on a public forum :-)
Lol the idea of somebody seriously suggesting or attempting to lasso a foal they can't catch is amazing beyond belief ! lol
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Gingersmum
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Post by Gingersmum on Jan 1, 2007 20:08:40 GMT 1
and yes seen the egg thing too :-) about 30 years ago . . . didn't work then ! but hey maybe the eggs they use are bigger now ;-)
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Post by SarahW on Jan 1, 2007 20:12:48 GMT 1
Personally I wouldn't have the ability to lassoo a chair never mind something where all four legs can move.
My favourite horse names for 2006 were Cromwell and Beamish but in 2005 I met Plink-Plonky and Ooh-La-La!
I have got to find a prefix for my New Forest foals and decided that I would name them after my favourite place on the Forest. As that is the Sherekhan Indian restaurant, I am hoping for a Sherekhan Patsy (named after my mother's first pony) and Sherekhan Kanuti (named after a Tanzanian friend).
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Gingersmum
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Post by Gingersmum on Jan 1, 2007 20:18:45 GMT 1
Oh yes that sounds very grand ! Actually the Indian theme is a good one as you could use all the spice names too (I'm thinking saffron not posh !)
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Post by janetgeorge on Jan 1, 2007 20:18:57 GMT 1
On the courses Kelly talks about self fulfilling prophecies and old wive's tales. Once upon a time a horse just happened to stop rearing after someone had hit it over the head with an egg. As a result all of us have heard the advice that the best thing to do with a rearing horse is to hit it over the head with an egg. Apparently the horse thinks that it has hit the sky and that it's head is bleeding (the sort of Chickin'Lickin Approach to horsemanship). As I doubt i could get on a horse without squashing the egg in my pocket it isn't a technique that I have tried. Ah - in Oz the recommendation is a bottle full of blood - you break the bottle on the horse's head and blood pours down!! Or the humane version is a plastic bag full of blood! I confess I was tempted once to try the plastic bag version on a horse I had who was an 'orrible rearer - he could rear for England! In the end I decided against it as he was just SO intelligent I was afraid he'd have a nervous breakdown! We finally had him almost cured - never fully - and then we worked out the cause of his rearing - he hated anyone being taller than him! Seriously! He eventually got used to the rider being 'above' him. You could make him rear in the stable by climbing a step ladder outside his box! And even in his later years, he could do a full day's hunting, not put a foot out of line, you'd be hacking back and someone would ride up beside you on a taller horse and up he'd go! (Luckily he was 16.3hh) That makes sense - my vet gets me to put a 'neck twitch' on with tricky ones having IVs - same principle - just take a loose bit of skin and pinch and twist it slightly. I do it myself for IM injections - virtually never get a 'jump' when the needle goes in. Yep - good idea. Saw a group of horsebreakers in Oz who used a similar technique - if rather expedited. They'd rope the wild one (and they WERE wild!) and the roper would 'hold' the line taut while the rider worked down it to the horse and then 'bagged' it. Rider would put the saddle on and the roper would ease up on the rope and keep his horse alongside the breaker while it ran/bucked/whatever. Once it settled, he'd trot it around a few times and the rider would come up and jump on - off they'd go again. MOST of the horses would be riding pretty quietly in under an hour. The other 'technique' that I'd love to be able to try here for traffic proofing horses was done by an old boy who broke in racehorses. (And so many racehorses were stabled within a mile or two of the racecourse and had to hack there, they HAD to be good in traffic!) He ahd a great big, bombproof Shire mare, and he'd harness the youngster up beside her and drive out onto the main Flemington Road. (Two lanes of traffic each way PLUS trams!) The youngster COULDN'T shy away - or take off - it was anchored by the big mare who just plodded along. So youngster learned traffic didn't hurt it. The problem with teaching horses about traffic is once they've learned to shy away from it, they've learned that it's 'safe' to do so. So they keep doing it - hell, it worked last time. But if they CAN'T shy or run, then they learn they don't have to!
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iammizz
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U CAN KISS IT XX
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Post by iammizz on Jan 2, 2007 13:12:43 GMT 1
Sedation doesnt allways work kayron,as has allready been said animals can fight it and chemicals(adrenalin) can counteract the effect of the sedative,ihave worked in a zoo and have seen many animals being sedated and know that each animal regardless of size etc can react in different ways..Sedation should only be done when all else is failing and the animal is in dire need of help.x
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Post by Gail&Merlin on Jan 2, 2007 13:49:48 GMT 1
I think having read this thread, there is a danger that people could only use people who have letters after their name..Which would be a real shame, as there are an awfull lot of extremely knowlegeable people who didnt attend a course but gained through experience... What on earth did people do before IH came along...or were all the horses lunatics then? or all unhappy? From what i remember 20 years ago people experienced the same problems then, and did what we do now...ask for help!..Being intelligent is gaining information from various sources then sorting out what you could do or need help with to do...just because someone suggests a lasoo doesnt mean everyone is about to go and do it, just like everyone who watches horrors dont all go out killing people...It will be a sad DG if people starting feeling intimidated into not giving sometimes quality advice just because they have not got qualifications...Sometimes all it means is that you are good at passing exams, only sometimes i might add...but also sometimes when people choose a path to follow they put blinkers on and refuse to look around...I know cos ive met some people like this...ive also met a 70 yr old man, who had never done a course in his life, but knew how to understand and help horses without ever raising a hand to them...sadley passed away last year, I admire him because he carried on in his quiet way never blowing his own trumpet, but he would have us listening for hours at his stories of success in a very humble way...
On the issue of names...Dancer really lives up to his...what have i done...lol
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gillmcg
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Post by gillmcg on Jan 2, 2007 15:57:15 GMT 1
I've read this thread with interest and considered all the arguments and tend to agree with a couple of posters who have suggested that better to see not-so-good advice on here where more experienced posters can discuss the pros and cons of it than it not be mentioned at all. It's helped me form opinions about what might not be a good idea and why! As said, someone will suggest it anyway away from this board where the recepient might not be able to consider the disadvantages/risks in a safe environment (i.e. in front of their PC!).
Once you've been on here a while you do tend to build up a picture of each poster and their philosophy/experience - I'd suggest if someone was seriously considering following a piece of advice they check out that poster's previous contributions and see what they think.....
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Post by azura on Jan 2, 2007 21:51:14 GMT 1
i have really enjoyed reading this thread and as already said how many ' experts' do you get at livery yards etc, that know nothing but because they buy good horses and get rid of bad ones quick, and win everything people take their word as gospel. I have learn't to deal with problems with my ponies since i was 6 and the yard where my pony was kepted on full livery filled her with stupid food. After been dumped every 4 strides, and run off with on the beach it took alot for me to over come my fears, but i stuck with it. i think people get a great sense of acheivement when they manage to deal with their problems, but i think people must think through what advice they give. On the egg one, i had something similar.A 16hh stallion used to rear all the time going to the paddock as he got through the archway, one day taking him out he spun in the archway as usual, but didn't quite clear it as he went up. He cut his poll on the gutter and looked at me as how did you do that. He never reared with me again? On names, i've just had a stallion on loan called PSYCHO, well i think wimp is more apropriate as he hides behind me if a leaf blows across the yard. Great to hear all the different points of view.
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Post by lisap on Jan 3, 2007 0:29:17 GMT 1
My concern about the advice giving on these boards is that in so many cases we don't know nearly enough about horse and rider before leaping in to try to help.
Personally, I would never attempt to advise on schooling/performance issues without actually seeing the horse and rider in action - either 'in the flesh' or on a good quality video, as there are just too many variables to consider. So, my comments would always - boringly - be along the lines of "Get some help from an experienced person who shares your values regarding riding and managing horses". By experienced, I don't mean qualifications - but someone who has had years of handling many, many horses in lots of different situations.
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Post by kas on Jan 3, 2007 9:57:14 GMT 1
How do we really know who the more experienced posters are? They could be getting it all from a book, or from reading other forums. As for letters after their names, only horse people who have chosen to affiliate themselves to a particular association and follow that through will have letters to match. RA stands for something, it means that Kelly thinks these people are experienced enough to go out and charge for their services. But the lack of "RA" attached to someone doesn't mean that they aren't just as good, it just means they didn't choose to be accredited by Kelly. What do all these letters mean anyway? MRCP? Seeing it attached to people on their profiles seems to imply that is some sort of endorsement by Kelly as well. Is an MRCP experienced enough to go and deal with problem horses? Or have they just got some course certificates? Not to offend anyone, I just don't know, but I'm saying what I think it means seeing it displayed here - that Kelly endorses them to go and work in a professional capacity. Does an RA have to be insured to practise? Does an MRCP? See what I mean about letters? You need to be "in" to understand what they mean anyway. I think on a forum you get to know the posters, and have the common sense to decide who seems to know their stuff, and who seems to operate in a way that you would be comfortable with. I think reading about people's experiences and advice here is no different to getting a book by some horseman and hearing what they would do. Mark Rashid tied up a horse's leg, well it worked for him but I have enough sense to know I don't have the experience to try that at home. Buck Brannaman uses a lassoo in his training, but it doesn't mean we will all rush out and do it (although I'm sure we could make a fortune in £250 videos sent to the telly!). And it has already been said that when people see a buckstopper or similar used in a demo, you just have to hope the audience have the common sense not to rush off and make one up themselves. So surely we just have to hope that people here have some "intelligence" - and if they don't then accept that they will probably be doing all sorts of daft stuff anyway, that they've picked up here and other places. If people can filter information presented by big names like Monty and Buck, then surely they know to do the same with a load of anon people on the Internet.
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Post by azura on Jan 3, 2007 10:59:07 GMT 1
kas i understand what your saying, i have worked on some of the best and successful showing yards in the country that has even taken me abroad. i would love to do one of kelly's courses but there is no way i can afford to or take a week away from my 3 children, 12 horses and between 6 and 60 pigs as well as get time off work. so does that mean i'm inexperienced?
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