Pony attacks small children

[rusheen]

I run a riding school so have to have safe animals. One dearly beloved pony has always been a bit eccentric (had a strange foal-hood and thinks that he's the top sheep). Today however his behaviour was dangerous. He knocked the little girl who was walking past him flat and then, as she was lying on the ground, bit her hand so hard that I think he might have fractured a bone. This type of aggressive behaviour is totally uncharacteristic of horses so I am really at a loss to rationalise it. Your thoughts would help, but also, more practically, any experiences you may have of using muzzles. These seem mainly developed for over-eaters, so do any of you know a) if they can be used with a bridle and b) where do you get one?

[xxx]

TBH in this situation I would be considering retiring/finding a different workplace for the pony as you risk further harm as he is not just biting but pushing over.
HAs his behaviour changed significantly recently? Had a vet check?

[megnum]

Maybe it is time for retirement as xxx said. muzzles can be got from most saddlery stores or ebay etc and yes I think you can use it for riding as long as not heavy work as might effect breathing

[rusheen]

Pony too young to be retired and (surprisingly) dearly loved by the kids. I suppose I'm trying to get to the root of his behavioural abnormality as well as finding ways of mediating against it. To me a muzzle is his next step before more drastic measures are taken. What's weird is that the same small child (who adores all our ponies) was also bitten by another pony earlier in the day. Do my ponies think that she is good enough to eat?

[xxx]

'too young to be retired'. perhaps in your opinion, but to me a muzzle is pretty drastic and I don't know of any that can be worn over bridles. what age is said pony. PErhaps he is bored of RS life?
PErhaps child was being horrible?
Drastic measures? Would a vet check not be more sensible first?

[rusheen]

Hey, xxx, I run an IH riding school. This pony is ridden for two hours weekly and has 24/7 turnout so I really don't think that he is bored. The said child adores him and all our other pets. When one of our dogs died the other week she totally particpated in his funeral and visits his grave every week with the other small girls. Believe me, these kids love our ponies and, having attended our summer camps, do not approach them in any way that could be interpreted as agressive or hostile. As for a vet check, I don't think so as local vets are not as specialised with equines as I am. This is an equine behavioural problem as far as I understand it and I am interested in contibutors' understandings of behavioural psychology to explain what seems to me to be very aberrant behaviour. It is not normal behaviour for a pony to serously bite a child who they have just knocked to the ground. If this pony was a dog he would not be given a second chance. So if you think that a muzzle is a pretty drastric option, what do you think is a more humane one? Personally I don't think that 'retirement' for a super riding pony aged 12 is a solution. But then, maybe you know someone who would liKe to take him on with his behavioural problems unresolved? If this reply seems stroppy then I apologise, but this is a real concern to me and I am trying to find a realistic way of rehabilitaing a dearly loved pony.

[xxx]

that's ok, but you must accept that a RS is normally seen as owverworking ponies.
So if not overworked, has he had all back/teeth check etc.?
The only thing I'm thinking (if this is totally OOC) is to get a blood test run? Or consider the possibility of a brain tumour(has been known to happen)
How is he otherwise?
Your reply is a bit stroppy, since you didn't give full details.
I don't know of any muzzles useable when ridden, and is it not more a stable vice?
Perhaps bars on his stable door and only let staff handle him?

[HeatherL*]

rusheen said:

(had a strange foal-hood and thinks that he's the top sheep)

Hi Rusheen, firstly there are others who hopefully will reply to this thread that are far more qualified to advise than I am but here are my thoughts for what they are worth ;D

Firstly has he always been like this? If not and it's a recent thing do you think he may have his own reasons for acting like this towards the little people? Is it that he is in pain or uncomfortable somewhere and resents them riding or handling him? Could it be back, teeth, tack causing him discomfort? Was he pushing for tit bits and then nipping, i.e. are the kids feeding him polos or suchlike? I was very guilty of this myself when I was a kid and always had polos in my pocket!

You hint at his odd upbringing and barging things is quite sheeplike did he just have sheep for company whilst growing up and not other horses to teach him some boundaries? Whatever the answer is to that I guess aside from the biting issue there is still going to be a problem with the pushing/barging. It sounds like he needs to have some groundwork doing with him so he can learn to respect your personal space and learn some boundaries. In view of the fact that there are children involved and you are obviously very keen to sort this out I'd definately get an RA in to do some work with him.

Good luck with him, I hope someone can give you some good advice but if not do think about an RA.

[HeatherL*]

Ooops crossed several posts! You've probrably thought of all of what I have suggested already Rusheen.

Best of luck though I do hope it works out for the little fella x

[rusheen]

Sorry that you see RSs as antipathetic to equines. I think that they are a great way of teaching children how to relate properly to horses and ponies, but maybe that's why I am a member of this site - I like to spread the word! This pony is not stabled and he attacked the child at the end of a lesson. The problem is not to do with brain tumours, it is to do with dominance issues. And biting a child who is prone on the ground is really really strange behaviour to those of us who belive that instinctively equines avoid proximity (let alone agression) to objects on the ground.

[xxx]

I have yet to go to a RS where the ponies aren't overworked 'dead' ponies. Sorry. Most aren't even groomed(and I mean dried mud) before being ridden.
The only good EC I've been to is a purely xc galloping place.
How do you know it is not due to a medical reason? How is he otherwise?

[rusheen]

This poor pony had a canine extracted by the vet eight years ago who claimed it was a wolf tooth and went around for ages with the tooth saying that he had never seen such a long root on a wolf tooth before. Nuff said. Pony is massaged before rides. he does not have a back problem. He has a problem to do with socialisation - he has a sheep leader mentality. But that doesn't explain why he attacked a child who loved him while she was flat on the ground after he had knocked her to the ground. Also doesn't take me any further in how to deal with the problem.

[xxx]

Yes. ok. so no back problem, no teeth problems.
How was his behaviour before, was he happy around the kids? Well behaved?

[kpick]

you could also get a full-muzzle head shakers net. this would kelp but as they are designed to ride with, perfectly safe.

[Deleted]

As you are already yourself saying, this is odd behaviour. This makes it much harder to come up with ideas on the other end of a keyboard. As HeatherL says, I'd be inclined to get an RA out so that he/she can have a good look at all the factors that might be influencing this pony's behaviour. You may well be right that it is just dominance but it is possible there is something else going on that you've not spotted. That's not a criticism, it's just normal that when you are in a situation you often don't pick up on all the things that are maybe routine or part of the scenery to you.

If, for any reason, you don't want to go that route, the only thing that comes to mind is maybe some groundwork with the pony involving the children. This depends, of course, on how old/confident/etc. the children are. Is there, maybe, one child you could trust to do this. How about ground games for one lesson, grandmother's footsteps leading, for example, or in-hand obstacle courses, round cones, backing up through poles, something that involved moving the pony's quarters (get to the end of the cones, 180 degree turn on the forehand, then trot back in hand or something like that)? You'd probably want to gear the pony up to it first to make sure he doesn't object too much to being moved around like that, first by adults then by children.

My gut reaction to the muzzle is that it would only at best mask the problem for a while. If the pony has such a big problem with the kids, he may well seek another, even more dangerous, way of expressing it. I wouldn't want to see a child bitten but even less double barrelled.