holly
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Post by holly on Dec 27, 2006 13:01:03 GMT 1
Hey up guys, did you all have a good one. Any how i would like to do some market research, about the above topic. Myself and my friend have decided that we would like to earn a little bit of money out of the hobby we both enjoy and live for. We thought we would buy a horse probably three years old that is un handled and give it a chance of life. Yes i no i hear you all sayin madness, but we have landed an 18 acre field and would like to use it. So the first question is, If you were to look in the ad mag tomoz or go to a sale, what colour , breed, sex , age would you look for. What sort of money would you want to pay. (market research, is the key me thinks) I no that this is a very mad idea but we would like to give it a try , even if it only ends up being the once
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holly
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Post by holly on Dec 27, 2006 13:12:30 GMT 1
up up
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Post by bhpride on Dec 27, 2006 13:16:34 GMT 1
hmm personally if I was bringing on to sell I'd look for: *14hh give or take def cobby type - suit just about anyone, small so i'm not dealing with a unhandled 16hh looking down on me lol
*decent conformation to start off with -
*Absolute max budget - £500 unhandled.
*Must have a laid back/confident, bold temperament, no nervousness due to bad history ie.headshy, scared, no vices or major issues whatsoever - completely untouched/unspoilt basically
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cubic
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Post by cubic on Dec 27, 2006 13:27:42 GMT 1
How much experience do you have?
If you haven't done this before it might be better to use your field to buy yearlings and 2yos and just do the ground handling and sell them on at 3 or 4 to be broken. Breaking is very time intensive (we do them for 15mins twice a day, 6 days a week to start with with 2 people always there) and you'll need facilities such as an arena, jumps etc.
I do a bit of buying youngsters and bringing them on, and colour doesn't bother most people, and sex often doesnt either, although geldings are preferred by some. If you do want to break and school on, look at where your strengths and interests lie. I like showing, so I buy horses that would make show horses and do mainly showing with them and a bit of everything else. If your strenth is show jumping or hacking, look at horses that would be suitable for those sorts of things.
People will pay the most money for temparament (in and out of the stable), although good basic conformation is a must and most people will want them to have done a few competitions successfully and be schooled and jumping a small course (for an alrounder).
Good luck with your venture. It's hard work, but very rewarding.
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holly
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Post by holly on Dec 27, 2006 13:36:58 GMT 1
thank you cubic, i am qualified up to stage 3 and have worked on a few horse yards. I have recently had a major challenge with my young arab and boy has he tought me alot. The only thing i do worry about , is i ride classical and it is some what different to english and whilst i have been learning this art and still am, i still remember getting on and felin like i could not ride because i asked in english and got the wrong responce. If i was to school my youngsters this way will others be able to ride them. Also i would say my strong point is on the ground , i love to work with horses on the ground, were as my friend is the more confident in the saddle
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Post by bhpride on Dec 27, 2006 14:03:40 GMT 1
hmm teaching a youngster is a lot different to regular riding, you need to teach them every little thing we take for granted such as the right leg aids and what they mean, bending, turning, lunging, longreining, teaching of lateral movements..its a lot of work esp if you aim to acheieve an outline in all gaits as will. It depends on how much you'd like to achieve schooling wise. You must decide and keep to it/know exactly what you're doing first, teaching correctly from the start.
You'd probably be better off starting off with a well handled, broken, unschooled youngster with a good temperment to bring on..completely unhandled maybe jumping into the deep end a bit for the first time.
It would be better to start with an easier project that will still teach you a great deal and give you confidence for something more challenging.
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holly
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Post by holly on Dec 27, 2006 14:32:22 GMT 1
bhpride, long reining, lunging, turn on the for hand, working horses long and low, piaffe and things like that are all things i have done with my youngster. I had him as a two year old unhand led Arab, he had only ever known being thrashed so a challenge is what i am used to. it is just getting the right horse for people out there, and whether to break classical or English as there is riding from the leg or the seat. For example if you asked my horse to stand then slouched in your seat and put more weight onto your right seat bones then he would circle . so any unevenness in your seat would have this effect. Were as a horse that is taught English would not move. if you see what i mean. I no that arab horses are not every ones cup of te , nor are new forest. Were as cob crosses seem to be mothers dreams.
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Post by bhpride on Dec 27, 2006 16:27:47 GMT 1
aww fair enough, I'd say english would be best for an 'allrounder' for sale purposes
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Post by Donnalex on Dec 27, 2006 18:42:55 GMT 1
Dun or buckskin or nicely marked coloured all round PC types are my choice. Pref Connie or Connie cross to improve chances of them having any jump.
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Post by katefox1812 on Dec 27, 2006 18:44:39 GMT 1
If you really enjoy groundwork, then I would agree with Cubic that it might be better to buy promising-looking yearlings or 2-year-olds (which tend to be much cheaper, as people don't want to wait such a long time before being able to ride them) and bring them on just to the point of backing/starting them.
Then sell them as beautifully handled, professionally started, well-mannered 3 or 4-year-olds, ready to go on and do well in whatever discipline, or as nice all-rounders or whatever.
But I have v little business sense, so probably best not to listen to me.
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Post by Rosie J on Dec 27, 2006 19:16:13 GMT 1
well, heres my tuppence:
firstly I think its worth adding up all the costs to see for sure what you would need to sell the horse for to cover your costs. Most horses that I take, I need to have earned 80 per week, so if I buy a horse for 300, and have him for 12 weeks, then he must be sold for about 1300. I know it seems harsh but you need to thin kthrough how long you think you need for that particular horse, and what price you think you can get in the end, and what you will have spent, and whether it adds up (it usually doesnt) if you really want to make any money.
Also - if you take on a prject horse, or a problem horse, make sure you pay for what he/she is worth now, not their potential! It always seems wierd when people ring up with a bucking, biting monster and want 4000 because he might turn into a nice horse one day!!
If you take ona horse with a remedial problem, you will always have to talk it through with protential owners even once your neddy is 'fixed' so it will always be more difficult to get a good rpice - a lovley 16h horse who used to nap is worth half of what a miuddle-of-the-road 16hh horse who has never napped is! And you will have to find the right person to make sure the horse doesnt regress- somtimes I think something is ttoally 'mended' - but thats only while they are here, the wrong place and the wrong person and your back to square one! So from a profit point of view - take on something simple!! Untouched is fine, unabcked or lightlynbacked, or just really green is fine. Bucking, bolting, rearing, schooling issues (somtimes the smallest issues are the hardest to solve as they are deeply learned and have been going on a long time) etc are my favourite, but definately dont make financial sense to buy them! (doesnt mean I dont do it!!) Its a hobby to turn these guys round not a business, because they take to long and if your honest (and you have to be) they are worth too little at the end.
14.2, 15.2 and 16.2 seem to be the best hieghts to sell, nothing in between! colourds, duns, palimino, appy etc obviously make it much easier too. The other bit of advice I would give is put the time into the little things, moutning, feet, leading, manners, tieing up, etc. I think its these little things that any horse I have had does so well that has earned me a good reputation for selling good honest horses even though I buy crazy useless ones!!
One final thing - when it comes to buying or selling, be ridiculously honest, even exagerate any bad bits - the last thing you want is someone selling you a horse they thought you would keep forever and seeing it for sale in a few months or someone buying a horse from you wihtout really understanding the previous problems. honesty really is the best policy.
regarding where to get horses, dont be so keen looking for a project that tyou spend silly money. An unhandled 3 yo should cost you 4-500, ask around and put the word out among friends. You say you have a field, do you have an arena/RP/ somwhere to work with the newbie?
Wherabouts are you? I often hear of project ponies/horses, and can never take them all so could pass details on to you.
I have a 13.3 chestnut NF, she was unhandled but is now handleable, and lightly backed, goingwell but still plenty to work on! Shes been sat on 4 times now. still a bit touchy with her feet and not seen much, but very sweet. I would be looking to keep her till spring and sell her for 2000-3000 depending on how she gets along, but could sell her to a project home now for 1000.
Finally - I dont buy a horse unless I know that I couod offer hinm a home for life if need be. I know people who have 'had' to sell horses for financial reasons, and ended up not entirely happy with the home or price etc and I would hate to be in that position. If you know in your heart of hearts that the horsey is best off with you, it will not be a hobby at all trying to sell him/her. If the training goes well and you know they will be just as well off elsewhere, then its great fun finding them that right home. But I would never take on a horse if I felt I might be pushed into a position of HAVING to sell him/her, or have him/her going without anything. (hence the ever growing collection of waifs and strays!)
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holly
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Post by holly on Dec 27, 2006 21:54:51 GMT 1
rosie j thank you so much for all that fantastic info.. At the moment we are at early stages of finding out more about what we would be taken on. We have the land, stables if required and the use of an arena, worse case a sectioned off piece of field , a great instructer if kneeded and very quite country roads for initial training. We have the time the patience the commitment , but not the experience of buying and selling, but alot of experience of horses that have had problems. I personally can not ride anything smaller than 14 2 but my friend can virtually ride from an 11 2 to 16 2 , all though she may look very small she is a strong, sensitive rider with confidence to help the horse feel safe .We are lookin to spend no more than 500 pound and to turn it around within a 12 week period more time if needed. But only one horse to start. It is just knowing were to look and what to look for. We have an idea of what people want, but achieving this is another story. We are going to go go to the sales for the next couple of months to see what it is all about, see who to deal with who not and kind of get a feel. But the scarey part is getting the wrong one. We are in derbyshire. so any help would be much appretiated
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Silversons
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Post by Silversons on Dec 28, 2006 9:39:23 GMT 1
My advice would be to visit the sales a good few times with no intention to buy. Look at what is making money and what isn't, light weight horses never make the same as the heavy coloureds. Get familiar with the actioneer and how he sells and what he's saying. It's not unheard of for him to run up a price with no bidders ect, also very easy to make a higher bid than you intended to.
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natalia
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Post by natalia on Dec 28, 2006 13:26:51 GMT 1
I work not nonly as a proffesional dealer rider, but also I have my own few who I buy to bring on and sell with a couple of friends in sussex. In the summer I earn an extra few hundred pounds a week from this, so only work 3/4 days for my winter boss, in the winter, its very hard and bussiness is slow. We have learnt trhough hard experiance that the best time to pick horses up cheap is around november, bring on over x-mas and aim to sell in the spring. HOWEVER, you could do this, but youstill have running costs, We actually prefer to clean out all our horses (except personall horses) and sell all by the end of october, witht he odd hunter going through the winter. This way there is no running costs and the yard has mainly full and a few diy liveries to keep it going. You have to be carefull with what you buy, personally I like some thing from 3yrs plus, broken or not, that has a nice attituide to work and easy to handle. We have a website that we sell from (down at the moment due to having no stock to sell) and we often get offered nice horses through word of mouth. I will also take problem horses, and have had a few given to me. I am VERY careful about who I sell who to, I would always wim to sell exactly as described, rather than risk reputation and create any dangerous situations. If I do have "problem" horses I tend to take them on a free to good home basis, purely because it often costs a few hundred pounds to sort them out to even get them to the rideable stage, and to get them to the point of being ready to rehome can sometimes take months, the other two I work with don't like taking the projects and these are soley my area so theres not really room for more than a couple at a time. Project horses are more a labour of love!. However, we are flexable with what is taken and how its payed for, ie, will take sale or returns, sales liveries, PX etc. Sale or returns are a good place to start, we offer a cash sum on the sale of your horse, and no livery costs while its with us, although you still pay for any vets fees, teeth, worming, shoes. We have a clear contarct for all sale or return owners and it dosen't work if the owner wants more than a couple of grand for their horse. IE, I take a sale or return 16.1hh allrounder, that does everything, good age, nice flatwork but needs a bit of tuning up and give the owner about 2k, I would sell for about £4500 +. If your going in to this witha friend please be careful. When we started we were told by some other dealers it was a bad idea, and not to go in to a partnership, but it works very well for us. Be careful to keep track of all your outgoings, keep written records and make sure everyone is written down as paying for what they have payed for and any sale money is divided between you, paying out expenses first. You WON'T make a profit on every horse, some will lose you a good few hundred pounds, but its all swings and roundabouts, and you will make a small fortune on others. Working in a three partenership wporks well for us as we each enjoy different aspects of the job, and have different skills. I like the small ponies, and projects, Antonia likes bigger horses and lots of jumping and Kat also like the biggies and also enjoys working them on the flat. Mkae sure your yard has good facilities, ours has a big outdoor school, full set of SJ fences in a field in the summer and extensive hacking, all situations can be tried, and we don't mind pottential owners comeing ot try horses several times and will let them take them to a show if thats waht they want before they buy. Its important you trust your horses, and if your selling as you describe them, you won't have anything to worry about or to hide. Good luck, its a lot of fun and I love riding whatever comes through the door and find the bringing on very rewarding, theres nothing nicer than seeing a horse you sold do well in its new home.
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pip
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Post by pip on Dec 28, 2006 13:43:24 GMT 1
A book on breaking and schooling said to start with a 14.2-15 hh because well schooled animals of this size of hard to find, and they don't have some of the problems that a "horse" has, and they cost less to buy in the first place. I think Natalia's advice is spot-on.
Remember to write things down regarding your friend - write a sort of mission statement, because often with business things between friends one ends up thinking they are doing all the work and the other one isn't pulling their weight.
Bringing on horses is more a labour of love than a way to make money, but if it goes well you will get a good reputation. Even buying from sales can be OK, as some people really do just breed and take to the sales because they don't want the hassle of people coming to see them at home.
You will also get problem horses dumped on you by private owners if you are not careful, so never pay to much. Think of a figure and halve it, keeping "meat money" as a basic payment (which is what dealers will do).
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