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Post by mandal on Dec 21, 2012 22:09:27 GMT 1
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Post by Catrin on Dec 21, 2012 22:34:49 GMT 1
I am glad that there is to be an investigation. Rollkur, keeping horses without sight of, or means to touch other horses and without daily turnout, are illegal in Germany.
It is sad that a despicable scam organisation like PETA are gaining publicity from this, but all eyes will be on the courts, to see the outcome.
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Post by mandal on Dec 21, 2012 22:41:28 GMT 1
I know but at least they've got this far. I am hoping something meaningful comes out of it for horses and it doesn't just turn into the usual poor owners hounded by the dreadful PETA scenario.
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Post by Lisa in Plymouth on Dec 21, 2012 23:20:26 GMT 1
I've got mixed feelings about this;
Great that training methods will be investigated but this horse was not turned out whilst in the care of Edward Gal so in that respect the new owners are doing nothing different. (For the record I think all horses should have turnout).
As for PETA having a video of him weaving, I find this laughable. I have a gelding that had 24/7 turnout until he was 18months old and then stabled at night. He's always been stabled next to all of his field mates and had ad lib forage but has weaved from day one. Are PETA going to go after me next?
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Post by Liz on Dec 21, 2012 23:24:57 GMT 1
I am glad that there is to be an investigation. Rollkur, keeping horses without sight of, or means to touch other horses and without daily turnout, are illegal in Germany. It is sad that a despicable scam organisation like PETA are gaining publicity from this, but all eyes will be on the courts, to see the outcome. I feel much the same, Catrin  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 23:32:32 GMT 1
I think the turnout issue was that the horse went crackers when turned out..........as for him being with Paul Schockemöhle well personally would not trust him with a hamster after what he used to get up to training his showjumpers.............in an ideal world they should have left him with Edward Gal to continue the partnership,
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Post by antares on Dec 22, 2012 0:34:59 GMT 1
Well yes maybe although it was Edward gal who trained him with rollkur, I believe his new owners only continued this as they couldn't handle him otherwise
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Post by Catrin on Dec 22, 2012 0:45:16 GMT 1
German horse welfare legislation states that regardless of age, breed, gender, and usage, all horses must have company and daily turnout. If horses have an individual stable, that stable has to have an outer area of the same size that the horse can walk out into: so a 12' x 12' box has to have at least 12' x 12' outdoor area accessible through the front or back door. This is a typical back of an American barn, and that's the least that is allowed.  Another popular choice, obviously not suitable for stallions uses an open barn for horses to have contact, but then the legislation specifies areas for separate feeding. There will usually be an area of at least equal size outside.  The fact that Totilas is a stallion or a very valuable stallion is not an acceptable defence in law. Males horses in Germany are often left entire, so the management is expected to comply with welfare legislation, stallions are not an exception. |
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Post by kizi on Dec 22, 2012 1:15:39 GMT 1
Catrin, is Germany good at enforcing those laws? What fab laws! Why can't we have them...
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Post by jill on Dec 22, 2012 8:33:48 GMT 1
There is a difference between lack of turnout and isolation. Some valuable horses (including racehorses in training) don't get turnout as such for fear of injury, but they do get contact with other equines. It is hard to believe the trainers think a horse will perform at his best when he is suffering the stress we all know occurs when horses can't see other equines. I hope if they find he is kept away from others that they penalise them accordingly, quite apart from the question of hyperflexion
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Post by antares on Dec 22, 2012 9:33:04 GMT 1
Catrin wasn't there a case earlier this year where a German owner or yard owner got prosecuted for not complyng with the above rules?
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Post by wabuska on Dec 22, 2012 9:52:16 GMT 1
Plenty of stallions here in Ireland are not turned out, at least not when the mares are in season. They can generally see other horses but that's it. Rolkur....? Look around any jumping warm up at a local show. PETA make me nervous as so many of their actions are based on resentment, hate and emotions not related to helping animals.
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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 22, 2012 10:36:28 GMT 1
Thanks for those photos Catrin - really interesting. They've picked up on Totilas because he's so high profile - it would be good if they asked questions were asked about the 3,000? breeding mares. How are they living? How are the stallions living that serve them? What is happening to all those foals?
On a slight tangent - I did what was meant to be a 'head to head' with a guy from PETA once. I think we were meant to violently disagree for the radio but actually we both agreed - the best of domestication if better than the worst of the wild - the best of the wild is better than bad domestication. There are many of us who do want to interact with horses - so it's finding that happy medium of what's reasonable.
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Post by antares on Dec 22, 2012 11:02:27 GMT 1
Plenty of stallions here in Ireland are not turned out, at least not when the mares are in season. They can generally see other horses but that's it. Rolkur....? Look around any jumping warm up at a local show. PETA make me nervous as so many of their actions are based on resentment, hate and emotions not related to helping animals. Sorry kanga but I don't think those people who are riding in local shows are actively doing rollkur, they are maybe using force to try and achieve some kind of outline and their horses are overbending to get away from the contact but it isn't the same force used in rollkur and hyperflexion that we see from the anky and Patrick kittell style of riding. I do agree that riding a horse with heavy hands is seen all too often but rollkur is a different league IMO And yes, I also totally agree and find it abhorrent the amounts of stallions being kept alone with no turnout in this country. I have a stud local to me where the stallions are kept alone 24/7 in their stables, only to come out for stud duties. No turnout even when breeding season is over. This seems to be the norm around here. It makes me want to keep my own youngster entire to try and show people that there is another way. He will be four next year and quite happily lives out or in close quarters with his two wee buddies. Unfortunately I think circumstances will dictate that he is gelded in the spring. |
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Post by mandal on Dec 22, 2012 11:04:20 GMT 1
I've seen Catrin's photos before and I think something similar to the pens should be compulsory everywhere with stabling. 12 x 12 is very small for a big horse, are there regulations about stable size in relation to size of horse in Germany? I know some people run stallions in a herd with the mares but does anyone know of any other systems for keeping stallions that are working that are not in isolation for turnout etc? I'm thinking in a herd with geldings or even a herd of stallions? After all, naturally they live in bachelor herds most of the time. Probably too risky, or is it? |
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