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Post by mandal on Dec 10, 2012 12:11:33 GMT 1
Lol mel16 good on you for working your way through the courses. re mineral deficiencies from birth,I was alterted to this idea by Sarah B re Sophie, it hadn't entered my head before. The thing with Talin Michelle he hasn't been at his new yard long so that forage is unlikely to be the cause/contributing factor if he has any deficiencies but don't forget, he has just moved there so if there is such a thing as immunity to mud fever, he might not have had time to build immunity to the bugs at that yard. Also moving is a stressor and that affects the immune system. Just pondering...  modified to try and make sense. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 12:18:09 GMT 1
True mandal. He's been there 8 weeks now I think. I have no idea if there are deficiencies, I have a bag of hay sat on my desk right now waiting to be sent off  But about a month before I moved I sent my grass analysis to Sarah B to ask which of her balancers would be best temporarily and she said it was near perfect, one of the best she'd ever seen, he only needed a tiny measure of balancer to give a little extra zinc which he would have been getting from his top spec balancer anyway previously. I wonder if as you say it's more about needing time to build immunity to a new ecosystem of bugs, after all that's how a well functioning immune system is deisgned to work. |
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Post by donnalex on Dec 10, 2012 16:28:46 GMT 1
Michelle maybe the recent move to a new place has put extra pressure on his immune system?
Firstly moving is stressful and stress compromises the immune system and secondly with his already possibly stressed immune system he has possibly met new bugs and bacteria that he does not already have plentiful antibodies to?
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orangetails
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Jay, Lilly and Tangle
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Post by orangetails on Dec 13, 2012 13:09:06 GMT 1
I was thinking about this this morning (I'd always intended to get Talin's minerals balaced after we moved) and I don't really see how minerals in the diet can be the cause of his MF: the other five horses on the same field, fed the same haylage and the same hard feeds don't have it, so how can Talin be deficient whent he other five aren't? He's been there the least time and was on near perfect diet (according to forageplus) and Mf free previously. Just because the same nutrients are going in doesn't mean each individual horse is gaining them or using them in the same way... I don't have a consistent supply of forage (buy in in small bales in multiple deliveries throughout the winter) so I have opted for Pro Balance + on recommendation/advice. I forget who makes it, but if you search for it on ebay it will come up! It's made to balance 'most' UK grazing/forage for those who like me are unable to get their forage/grazing analysed. I have to say the improvement in my arab's hoof quality has been impressive - much tighter growth. Remains to be seen if it will have encourage more growth overall to stand up to her being barefoot long term as she is out of work at the moment - I usually end up having to shoe her when the endurance fittening work steps up a gear as her feet just don't grow quickly at all. Sadly it wasn't a magic cure for her mud fever which she's had since June - that was one of the reasons I moved her on to it, as apparently lack of copper can be a cause in mud fever, but it hasn't made a difference for her, and her overall skin/condition/weight has always been good anyway. I'll keep her on it though, it's working out very economical and she looks well. She's never had any other health issues in the 6 years I've had her, apart from mud fever which she has always been prone to... |
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Post by jen1 on Dec 13, 2012 13:18:39 GMT 1
oo you read my mind woman, the horses i have now have never had mud fever, and they live bogs well partly on the track so have very muddy legs, there very close to bespoke becase i have not had this years hay tested, i will do in the new year,
this is not a direct response to you Spanish eyes, or even to question your response, but i kind of jogged my memory of a theory i have swimming around in jen land-aka brain, that is the liver and kidneys are busy trying to remove excess mineral or not removing is more to the point, them there not going to be able to fight infection to the optimum, surely a bespoke balanced diet equals far healthier horse,
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Post by jen1 on Dec 13, 2012 13:19:58 GMT 1
have you thought of whopping talin onto restore, my fave herbal blend, ive used to for all sorts it kind of my god, lol
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 13:20:22 GMT 1
Interesting about the hoof improvement but no change to MF. Talin is on a forageplus balancer which like yours is based on UK average analysis results, he's only been on it about 3 months so it might still be too soon to see but I haven't noticed any difference in hoof quality and the MF has started since moving.
Good point PN about stress, even though he appeared to settle quickly there's bound to have been some underlying worry. He's on probiotics to help his gut after the antibiotics he had for the cellulitis.
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Post by donnalex on Dec 13, 2012 17:55:17 GMT 1
Orangetails have you tried Canesten cream on the mud fever?
When I bought Tiara she had horrendous mud fever on both hind legs and it was June. I just could not get it to heal, Id get it nearly there and it would flare up again, I was dreading winter!
Then someone suggested it could be fungal and to try Canesten cream. It started to improve within three days and has never come back. Thats over four years now.
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Post by Solly on Dec 16, 2012 16:46:29 GMT 1
Surely sweet itch isn't related to diet? Surely an improved immune system isn't going to help with the allergy that is sweet itch? Am I doing more harm than good by feeding Formula 4 Feet even though the horses adn their feet seem to look better on it? Why does everything have to be so bewildering and counter-intuitive? When I first joined this site, some 10 years ago, people were pro barefoot, no rugs and out 24/7 and pro supplements.....now it seems this trend is reversing somewhat. I find it all quite unsettling, I can never feel confident I'm doing right by my horses.....Especially as 2 have now got Cushings.....
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mel16
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Post by mel16 on Dec 16, 2012 18:09:48 GMT 1
An allergy, as I understand it, is a wayout response by an overactive immune system. Nutrition has been shown to help allergy responses in human...I have allergic asthma which is definitly helped by staying off cows milk. There was some research showing that flax/linseed can help dampen the allergy response in sweet itch.... www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC227015/Sorry, bit of a geek  |
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mel16
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Post by mel16 on Dec 16, 2012 18:12:17 GMT 1
As for the mineral deficiencies since birth it goes further to the health of the mother at conception and during pregnancy. Its called epigenetics and there was a brill programme on radio 4 last year....(goes off to hunt down programme)
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Post by Solly on Dec 16, 2012 18:40:04 GMT 1
Yes but no but yes but - you staying off cows' milk is just the same as making sure a horse avoids midge saliva. It's not nutrition as such. And yes, I think that's the research I've read about, which shows that in many cases the (oh dear - bad memory - er ) stuff in linseed can have at least a couple of effects - anti-inflammatory and also something to do with causing the skin to react with light which helps - I understood it at the time but when it comes to bringing it back it eludes me....but anyway, again, it's not what I'd call nutrition.
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Post by Solly on Dec 16, 2012 18:43:01 GMT 1
What I mean is when I say not nutrition is it's not the same as mineral or vitamin deficiencies.
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Post by donnalex on Dec 16, 2012 18:52:05 GMT 1
Have a look at spirulina and chondroitin supplementation for sweet itch as well. The thread is not about sweet itch but yes diet can help alleviate the symptoms or make them worse in some instances. Different horses can react differently, some seem to respond to B vitamins and there is some evidence that vitamin B1 helps some people avoid or not react to midge bites. And sugar can make them rub more. I know exactly what you mean about the change of direction in the way people are keeping their horses with the barefoot, rug free, tree free debates that rage on here sometimes but I think you have to apply some common sense and do what works for your own horse  |
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Post by Solly on Dec 16, 2012 19:42:15 GMT 1
Yes, that's right. You do have to apply common sense. (Mind you, the true meaning of common sense is the sense that most people have, the common belief, even if it's wrong.)
But wouldn't it be luvverly if there were some things everyone agreed on re the welfare and husbandry of our horses. Maybe I should think positive and make a list of those things, so that I can cross them off the worry list. Water is one I think. Although in some countries they (wrongly) think you shouldn't give it to working horses don't they?
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