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Post by mandal on Jan 2, 2011 13:53:50 GMT 1
Following the horse kissing thread I thought it might be worth discussing what we think about this? Can of worms possibly. I know I've changed my focus and possible thinking on this subject over time and some due to the 'discussions' with those who are positively focused. My take is that horses are not naturally 'disrespectful' the same way children aren't. They can learn to be 'disrespectful' through inconsistent handling etc. Is disrespectful the correct word in this case? Can a horse be called disrespectful when he really hasn't been taught consistently, ie. doesn't know the rules? I never really had a problem with this term but have come to see how it can cause problems in the way humans address difficulties when a horse is considered disrespectful when in fact he has never been taught properly so is only behaving as he has learned to behave rather than out of disrespect for the human? Oh heck, I hope this isn't a mistake. Mods do feel free to delete if I cause a riot.
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Post by kirsten on Jan 2, 2011 14:04:31 GMT 1
Quite right Mandal. Of course horses are naturally only interested in having their needs met, ie. fed, watered, not feeling threatened, etc. And if our horses don't "behave" in a way we like its not because they have set out to "disrespect" us its just that we have inadvertently taught them to behave thus. Of course as horse lovers we would to love to think that we have built a special bond with certain individual horses - I think thats part of why so many of us (particularly on here!) spend so much time/energy/money on horses!
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Post by Zoe RA on Jan 2, 2011 14:24:51 GMT 1
when in fact he has never been taught properly so is only behaving as he has learned to behave
Absolutely Mandal
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Post by specialsparkle3 on Jan 2, 2011 14:39:58 GMT 1
I do believe that horses can be "disrespectful" in their way . I have come across many youngsters ( and oldies) in my years of breeding, who will behave perfectly for me and my groom and anyone else who is an experienced "horseman" , but very often if someone who the horse looks on as a "bit of a pushover" even when they are used to horses----------my OH for instance, happens to lead them out to the field for example, will on occasion, be really cheeky and test the boundaries. I have said before that I truly believe that horses have their own type of sense of humour and some find it amusing to behave this way with someone they think will let them get away with it. The old "give him an inch and he'll take a mile" situation. For Instance how often do you hear people with new horses saying " but he was as good as gold when I went to view him " Horses having to cope with a change of home, often test the bounderies of their new owners until that new owner has earned the horse's respect, which of course ultimately makes the horse feel more secure. Of course if a horse is behaving in an unacceptable way because it has never been taught any manners or had any consistancy in it's life, then that is a different matter entirely. A human being has to EARN respect from any horse before they have the right to call it "disrespectful " so in the case of a horse who really knows no better, respect and trust must be the first aim in your relationship with him, before you can move foward together. Hence the value of an RA
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Post by Catrin on Jan 2, 2011 14:42:30 GMT 1
The behaviour you get from a horse is the behaviour is has been allowed to display. When you watch Kelly and Grant with the horses in Namibia, you realise how much horse handlers get wrong.
Horses don't have 'disrespect' in their vocabulary, they only have respect: either they respect you or another horse, or you or another horse respects them. There isn't anything else in horse relationships unless someone spoils it.
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Post by jill on Jan 2, 2011 14:55:59 GMT 1
It's linked to leadership, and if a horse doesn't find a leader he will take on the role. Since they live in our world it could be disastrous, they don't understand about all the dangers in our environment so we have to take the leaders role and expect them to follow us. And oddly enough they feel more secure for it. I don't think you can separae respect and leadership in a herd animal whose very survival depends on following a leader in whom they can have faith.
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Post by jennyb on Jan 2, 2011 15:20:06 GMT 1
Agree with SS3, my horse has a very highly developed sense of humour, as most people who meet him will agree! He knows perfectly well how to behave and is actually very *respectful* most of the time, but now and again he will be deliberately cheeky because he thinks it's funny. I know exactly what he is doing and probably don't help by laughing at him.... ;D
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Post by rj on Jan 2, 2011 15:55:44 GMT 1
However we express ourselves we do it in the context of our experience and understanding, but in general I believe that horses want & need far less from us than we want from them.
Going through the Parelli programme taught me to look at the horse and assess their needs, not to impose my wish for a show of affection, for instance. To communicate without using my voice, and to be very clear what I was doing for the horse,snd what I was doing for me.
What we call an outward show of respect is something than can be achieved by force and fear, or by willing co-operation.
Many horses are so good natured and generous, their owners have no idea that they are not setting proper boundaries and maintaining a calm confident and consistent regime. When the small percentage behave as they have been allowed to, they can be confused or scared by a lack of leadership, or if they are more dominant themselves, they see no-one else who can take over their role as leader, so take their own decisions. That's not disrespectfiul behaviour because the boundaries were never set............
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Post by medicinepony on Jan 2, 2011 16:41:41 GMT 1
I have to agree, its in a horses nature to test the boundaries and they do it all the time to each other and us
I have one particularly dominant / lead mare and she is really sweet but after time off we do need to reset the boundaries / expectations.
she behaves very differently towards different people and its so interesting to watch her test new adults who try to work with her, she is so subtle they mostly don't notice she is pushing them around until you point it out
interestingly enough she rarely tests children with whom she is sweetnes personified. only adults get the test
and no she hates being kissed and fussed over, although her daughters love being kissed and fussed over
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Post by Francis Burton on Jan 2, 2011 16:58:54 GMT 1
It's linked to leadership, and if a horse doesn't find a leader he will take on the role. Regarding horses and humans, I would put it differently: Horse will do their own thing unless we ask/tell/make them do otherwise. Whether horses regards us as trustworthy or reliable or bossy or nice to be with depends how we treat them. No doubt horses respond positively to certain leadership qualities that we exhibit, though maybe not all. I believe our admiration for strong authority isn't a feature of equine society - nor the notion of obedience (except perhaps in the mare-foal relationship). Also, and most controversially perhaps , I believe dominance is entirely separate from leadership for horses (consistent with observations that the most dominant horse is often not the one that others follow), and that adopting dominant traits in our dealings with horses works against and not with other leadership qualities we show towards them. I think this is right. Horses have a considerable ability to exist autonomously, but they are most successful and feel safest when they have each other to follow (coordinating movement for example) and also have older, more experienced herd members to follow whom they can trust and learn from. I'm not so sure that we should equate what looks like respect in horses with the same feelings that we have towards other people who we respect. That's why I steer away from using either "respect" or "disrespect" when talking about horses. I'm more inclined to consider them as labels we come up with to describe the relationship that is embodied in the behaviours we show and are shown. I'm skeptical about it working the other way round, i.e. a relationship of respect is established and all the good behaviours come out of that. In fact, I feel that is a weakness of some philosophies of horsemanship - the one's that teach establishing x by doing y and then half-expect the horse to know that he should do w and z as well, even before he has had a chance to learn them properly. Rather I believe each behaviour has to be taught and it's the sum of those behaviours that constitute the relationship we describe as "respectful".
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Post by wabuska on Jan 2, 2011 17:17:08 GMT 1
I'm with Francis. Lots of great common sense there.
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Post by Francis Burton on Jan 2, 2011 17:25:43 GMT 1
Thanks Kanga - I feel like such a heretic sometimes... ETA: There are some exercises or activities that can get a horse to really listen and pay attention to you, others that reassure and start to build trust. I think those are generally useful in facilitating subsequent learning - though obviously you still have to go through that process.
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Post by mandal on Jan 2, 2011 17:49:59 GMT 1
Thanks Kanga - I feel like such a heretic sometimes... . Lol! Hope that has nothing to do with me! Also, and most controversially perhaps , I believe dominance is entirely separate from leadership for horses (consistent with observations that the most dominant horse is often not the one that others follow), and that adopting dominant traits in our dealings with horses works against and not with other leadership qualities we show towards them. Of course this will get me to comment! I agree 99% with this but I, as you know, see dominance slightly differently. Enough said about that one. I do believe dominant horses ie. horses with a dominant persoanlity do not seem to be good leaders but I do think dominance is one aspect of leadership. ;D Leadership ids not all about getting others to want to follow there is direction in there too imo. Anyway back to respect and disrespect. Again the meaning to different people gets in the way of us understanding each other I believe. Young people these days seem to use disrespect to mean disagree in some instances and to me this is very confusing. I see and do believe horses can be 'naughty' as in know when someone is unable to keep to the rules/boundaries and will exploit this. However I wouldn't call this disrespect myself.
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Post by wabuska on Jan 2, 2011 18:43:38 GMT 1
It goes both ways. I mean I don't disturb my horse at his grub, or (as his past owners did) pull him around by his tail in the box, I make much of him on our return from all rides. When he's at rest in the field, I don't barge into his space. Respect for me, is a step back when I come into the box, it's not quite a salute, but just my 1% in the relationship that I like of 49:51. I think the lack of respect is often an 'ask'... right who are you? Are you in charge? You are... great... phew.
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Bay Mare
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Post by Bay Mare on Jan 2, 2011 18:49:14 GMT 1
I could ramble on but really all I would be meaning is "what Francis said" Absolutely agree with this Although I do believe that every horse has a different character, some naturally more 'dominant' than others, I no longer believe in the dominance hierarchy that most of us have been brought up with. The more I learn about horses the less I realise that I know
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