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Post by Del Boy on Jan 4, 2011 23:04:19 GMT 1
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Post by Ryan&Dizzy on Jan 4, 2011 23:42:39 GMT 1
Ive only just seen this, its an area im interested in after my horse was diagnosed 3yrs ago. I bought him un-vetted knowing he was showing signs of being 'cold backed' (he 'scooted' off as you mounted but settled after a few strides but i think he was probably buted) but the saddle he was ridden in didnt fit and he was ridden on a very poor outline when i went to try him so i had just put it down to that, he also had obvious behaviour issues (was very timid and got defensive) but fell in love with him so bought him anyway. the first time i got on him at home he bronced as soon as i got in the saddle so I got his back checked and he fell over as soon as the man touched his back. i then got the vets out, my vet told me he had bad muscle damage that looked like it was caused by a being riden in a saddle with a broken tree, so to turn him away for at least 6 months. During this time i noticed other strange things he did, such as when in the field he didnt graze with his head down he would just grab at grass and bring his head back up, he didnt roll, he didnt track up evenly behind and he had a variety of behavioural 'weirdnesses'. So i went to a different vets and asked for a referral, to go in for a lameness work out. He first had nerve blocks on his hind legs because they thought it was a leg issue, then had a bone scan and x rays which showed he had kissing spines (between 3 spinal processes), arthritis of his sacrial-iliac(sp?) joint and signs of arthritis in both hocks. because of his behavioural issues i decided against having surgery because i just could not see him coping mentally with being on box rest for that long and with being faffed with (if he felt presured or like things were too much to cope with he would flip out and get aggressive). He had steroid injections whilst ther, his week stay at the vets cost £2800 in all when we got hoime i read up on physio work to strengthen his back and found that actually people had had quite positive results without surgery so got a physio on board and started doing ground work to strengthen his topline (he had terrible posture and was very u-shaped) it took us 9 months from being in the vets to get to a point where we could think about riding. Then had to basicly re-back him because on his learnt behaviour as he would bronc as you tried to mount. it was about 8 months after buying him that i finally got my first proper ride and walked round the school without the fear of death. Over the next 9 months i rode him and continued working with the physio and although as i whole he got much better, i hacked him out, and schooled at walk, trot and canter he would have funny turns where he would for no apparent reason bronc and even when i came off he would carry on sometimes for a good 10 mins after i had fell. the vets and physio couldnt find any sore points or reason for it, i honestly still dont know if it was a reaction to pain or learned behaviour but after being admitted to hospital twice for injuries i decided i couldnt risk continuing to get back on. It broke my heart but i made the decission to have him PTS as he was 16 by this time and still had quirky behavioural traits that would have made him a difficult companion and i didnt have the land or money to keep him as a pet. It breaks my heart i so wish i could have sorted him and wonder all the time if i should have had him operated on. Sorry for the giant post!
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Post by donnalex on Jan 5, 2011 9:27:24 GMT 1
I think you did the right thing Sophie Dont feel bad. What breed was he?
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Post by Ryan&Dizzy on Jan 5, 2011 11:20:42 GMT 1
thanks that means a lot! He was a gelderlander.
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Post by laurac on Jan 5, 2011 11:39:41 GMT 1
I found an interesting chap on the net jean luc cornille who corrects kissing spines with pure physical therapy in hand Here is the video, at the start its very clear the horse is not at all happy and at the end is being ridden in a relaxed manner, apparently it took 3 months from start to finish to correct this horse, amazing www.scienceofmotion.com/videos/kissing_spine.html
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2011 11:40:25 GMT 1
Sophie that's awful, you poor thing, sounds like you really did a lot for him though. It sounds like a blessing that he lived his last few months in a caring safe home
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Post by laurac on Jan 5, 2011 12:32:22 GMT 1
Oh I'm sorry sophie about your lad, you gave him everychance x
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Post by Ryan&Dizzy on Jan 5, 2011 12:41:36 GMT 1
thanks guys, i miss him sooo much he was such a special boy i wish i could have kept him as a pet because although he had his quirky bits i loved him to bits, but he had had a lot of other medical issues and i had basicly spent every penny i had on vets bills, so i had to decide that enough was enough but i really did love him and i miss him every day.
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Post by donnalex on Jan 5, 2011 13:28:48 GMT 1
I suppose that a problem with kissing spines is that even if yu can get a cure or relief from the pain then there is all the behavioural problems still to deal with arising from remembered pain, punishments dealt out by people trying to sort them out and so on? I always wonder if Welsh Cobs due to their very dippy backs/topline have issues with kissing spines? If you look at a picture of an average Sec D you will see that their backs are very hollow and I have always thought they must struggle with working correctly as they have twice as far to lift their back as most other breeds do to be correct and comfortable when being asked to work through. This could be one reason why they are difficult and stroppy? On the subject of backs a few of the very tricky ones I have had that have always been tense then flipped for no apparent reason have been slightly roach backed. I was sent a Coonie to sell for a friend that was tense about two years ago that had been hunting all the previous winter, he was slightly roach and when I got on him he felt like he might explode at any minute but never did. He was sweet to deal with from the ground but massively unpredictable once mounted. Some would describe him as 'cold backed'. I just thought that he was not happy being ridden and felt the way his back was put together was responsible at least in part for that. I sent him back. I wnder if they have similar problems or do have kissing spines under the saddle. I knew a Fell pony that was slightly roach, she too worked so far the for a few weeks, just as you thought she was sorted she would launch you for no obvious reason. Im sure there was one, just we cant ask them. I have learnt the hard way and would never touch one with a roach back, however slight or one with a dippy back.
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Post by Ryan&Dizzy on Jan 5, 2011 18:10:33 GMT 1
its strange you say that actually Ryan had a slight roached back.
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Post by donnalex on Jan 5, 2011 18:32:01 GMT 1
I had a Section C with a slight roach. She was an amazing jumper and would ride into 4ft calmly and nicely for me but ask her to bend and for anything done in a certain way and she got really tense. She absolutely went berserk one day broncing like mad with me in the arena for no reason I could fathom. Long after I was off she carried on bucking like a rodeo horse. When she stopped she was scared stiff but I had no idea what of. I sold her to go jumping and she has done really well but she still has her moments.
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jan 5, 2011 18:57:36 GMT 1
Thanks for sharing here. Romi has a slightly roached back ... she's been given the wonderful opportunity of a 'home for life' with her breeder, back with her original herd, so she's a very lucky girl. Sympathies to you Sophie, but a humane end is so much better IMO than letting them get passed on from sale to sale plus risk seriously injuring someone.
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Post by donnalex on Jan 5, 2011 21:49:41 GMT 1
I think some of the roach backed horses can drive quite well if their temperament is good in evey other way. I also knew an Exmoor that was the same with a roach back come to think of it. But it was put down to the breed being wild and feral not his back. I think their muscle either goes into spasm or gets pinched, they are definitely not as comfortable being ridden as other horses. My Sec C was totally sound and pain free when checked out but then theres no saddle on them when they are beng checked by the physio.
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Post by Sue Palmer on Jan 6, 2011 0:00:54 GMT 1
Don't have time to add much, but couple of points to note. Kissing spine has been found in around 80% of horses I believe - a thorough search of pubmed should help with the facts on this one. It is obviously not always symptomatic! A client of mine had her horse diagnosed with kissing spine and treated with medication, didn't fix the problem and vet said it was behavioural. Client and I disagreed with vet so she went for 3rd opinion (had to get 2nd opinion before anyone would look at the back!) which finally flagged up hock problem. Hocks treated and horse now going beautifully. Glad to hear so many people are realising what good Physio can do to help! Sue
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Jan 6, 2011 0:21:24 GMT 1
Nancy has a slight roach back and Bronte a slight dippy back (I would say she is croup high, but she hasn't always been).
If you can strengthen the back through ground work will that help with ridden work?
Nancy was ridden once and the next day her back was sore on one side, having said that the rider didn't try & work her long and low (but then I suppose Nancy wouldn't know how to just yet). He was only on her for about 20mins, did mostly trot and yes she was hollow for most of it so its really no wonder she was sore.
Thats why I am keen to do a lot of in hand work, to strengthen her back. I also want to work on her core muscles so she has the support. Its interesting (& worrying) as I have seen Nancy do the cat stretch (only occasionally and usually in the morning, I just assumed she was having a morning stretch!) having said all that, it has been noted that Nancy hasn't done an awful lot to have given her KS.
Can they get it even if they haven't done strenuous work?
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