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Post by Kelly Marks on Jan 3, 2011 18:21:02 GMT 1
Thanks for that Mandal. I'm googling around kissing spine like mad and I wouldn't say there's a lot of trustworthy information around. I'm concerned that if a person specialises in something then they become the person everyone listens too but there actually might be better advice out there ... still to be found! Mandal aren't you meant to be working?! I'm meant to be 'sorting my office out' but I might have to go on my geek thread to see how I can get pdfs on my computer as I can't read Dr Debs essays!
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Loulou
Elementary Poster
Posts: 94
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Post by Loulou on Jan 3, 2011 18:21:36 GMT 1
I had a horse for a short time who was diagnosed with KS. He was a head shaker and also used to buck in canter. Some days he would Headshake very badly so that you would have to come back from a hack because he wasnt looking where he was going and then the next day there would be no headshaking. You couldnt tell if he was going to HS until you got on to ride him. One time we were out hacking and my husband was riding him and the saddle had slipped back during the ride. Hubby got off and moved the saddle back into position and remounted and the horse then started to headshake so badly we had to come home.
Eventually he had a full lameness workup from a vet because he was just not right behind and he had X-Rays and you could see that the spinous processes were very close together on 3 of them. He had a treatment called a 'titration' here (I live in France). It involved the vet injecting between the spinous processes and along the muscles on either side of his spine.
Sadly when I went to ride him again on the vets advice which was really, really bad advice, the horse bucked me off very nastily and I was seriously injured. Not at all the horses fault as he should not have been ridden so soon after the treatment. The horse was sent back to his owners and he went on to buck several other people off. He was then rested for a couple of months and sold on. I have no idea of the outcome after this.
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Post by mandal on Jan 3, 2011 18:27:18 GMT 1
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jan 3, 2011 19:57:02 GMT 1
arghh! Can't get pdfs!
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Post by Furiey on Jan 3, 2011 20:08:03 GMT 1
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Post by laurac on Jan 3, 2011 20:42:52 GMT 1
Hi again Kelly My vet /oesteopath who thinks my boy has kissing spines specialises in back pain. I'm sure she wouldnt mind you speaking with her, she seems really up on it and suggested i dont go down the operation route as its not always successful and can make it worse. Her partner is also a vet and works at one of the newmarket horse hospitals www.donnablinman.co.uk for contact details inc email (Donna was montys tour vet in 2007 and has done the mrcph as she is interested in horse psychology, she can probably fill you in on behavoiural problems caused by this condition too i should imagine) The other thing I noticed about my chap before treatment started was that on a daily basis he would do these back stretches in the field where he would stick his front legs out in front go down low on front legs, pull back and stick his rear end in the air, just realised today he has not done this since he has had a few treatments from donna so not for 3 months - have a pic somewhere Kelly is your Romi a dutch warmblood? my boy is too, i wonder whether certain breeds / lines are more prone? I always thought my boy was started too young by rough riders in holland and this may have caused his problems?
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Post by jennyb on Jan 3, 2011 21:25:13 GMT 1
Gazdag used to do cat stretches too. Perhaps it was a growing thing for him, as he hasn't done it for ages. Worryingly, he used to do them under saddle when he was having a tantrum!
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Post by Furiey on Jan 3, 2011 23:05:52 GMT 1
Gazdag used to do cat stretches too. Perhaps it was a growing thing for him, as he hasn't done it for ages. Worryingly, he used to do them under saddle when he was having a tantrum! That's interesting, Bailey does them if for example we are walking out and pass some mares in a field he wants to go and meet. He won't pull over to them but does cat stretches instead before moving into piaffe to go on by. I wish I could hear what he is trying to say when he does it but he is obviously expressing something!
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Post by jennyb on Jan 3, 2011 23:15:44 GMT 1
I think with Gazdag it was often a release of anxiety. In the pic above, I was asking him to go into the stream and he didn't want to.
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Post by sarah h on Jan 4, 2011 8:06:09 GMT 1
I have a 7yr old dutch warmblood who had a kissing spine operation last year, I have owned him for 3 yrs, he had always been a bit sharp to ride but more looky certainly not nasty, but was very talented and had just stated competing bd dressage. He had regular physio by a very respected lady and NEVER had any problems with his back. The only sign I had was at his last show he was very quiet and not forward at all, he had a couple of days off and I had a lesson and he looked unlevel behind, I took him to the vets and he had a lameness work up and they thought he had bone spavin, to cut a long story short he was treated for that but was still unlevel so he went to Liverpool for a bone scan where it was found that although he had slight changes in his right hock he had severe kissing spine. I brought him home and he had tildren and steroids injected but nothing seemed to work. He was operated on last sept and had 6 pieces of spine removed, rehab was slow but he is now very sound and in work and to be honest feels as good as before.
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Post by gwenoakes on Jan 4, 2011 8:33:50 GMT 1
Thats very interesting Outof the blue about your horse having a very wide back. Daisy the TB who I mentioned has a very wide back too, in fact the saddle for Jack, Clares Shire fits her in width beautifully although obviously we dont use it or any saddle.
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jan 4, 2011 9:37:27 GMT 1
Outoftheblue - sorry I missed your post earlier. What's very interesting to me at the moment is googling kissing spine I believe can give you lots of misinformation and really point you towards the operation because there is a well known specialist in this. Americans are known for 'loving to operate' but it's not always the best way - they've found that with human backs - most people over 40 have got a prolapsed disc - I discovered I had after an MRI scan and was in a lot of pain a few years ago but kept exercising and had treatments as and when I needed them and now it gives me hardly any problems at all.
Talking to Monty, who like me, does not profess to be a back expert, but makes a job of talking to as many educated people as possible, we know that not every horse with Ks reacts badly and he says it all depends where the nerve network is - whether it causes a reaction or not.
Laurac - I know Donna well as she's been a student of mine and will get in touch - thank you! Yes, Romi is a Dutch Warmblood.
I'm also investigating whether modern saddles too far back can be making problems worse or causing them.
I'm also thinking of getting Pie and Banksy's backs x-rayed - they are not displaying behavior problems but have regular physio treatments for various stiffness and I'm finding it so interesting.
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Post by heather on Jan 4, 2011 11:50:57 GMT 1
I would advocate taking Romi to the St David's Practice at Exmouth, Kelly. They have got around 90% of horses with KS back in full work without surgery.
Vet Tony Kaye and physio, Clare MacDonald work together. They use a combination of mesotherapy- a system whereby literally hundreds of little needles inject along the spine a cocktail of various substances, plus a very systematic Pessoa lunging programme, and laser therapy ( Clare hires you a laser to do the treatment daily).
A friend's horse was a very good BSJA showjumper, well bred KWPN, and was diagnosed at 10 with KS. Tony and Clare treated him, and although Jill no longer jumps him, he has become a successful dressage horse. I work with him when I am free, and he is training now at advanced medium, winning at medium, but also able to do a pretty decent beginnings of piaffe too!
On the other hand, another friend bred a lovely young horse to event, Mary King offered her £20,000 for him as a four year old. Laura turned it down, and kept him. 6 months later he was diagnosed with KS. He went up to one of the other leading vet practices that specialises in KS and was operated on. He has never been right since, can't tolerate any saddle apart from one of my oldest prototypes which was made almost entirely from memory foam, and only hacks out.
Heather
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steve
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,640
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Post by steve on Jan 4, 2011 12:45:56 GMT 1
The other thing I noticed about my chap before treatment started was that on a daily basis he would do these back stretches in the field where he would stick his front legs out in front go down low on front legs, pull back and stick his rear end in the air My friends pony also does this a lot, and sticks his tongue out!! Her daughter went from confident rider, to almost in tears if you asked her to come out of walk, and we thought she was just being a wimp, when after a few weeks of this the pony started to mis behave. We thought the rider was causing it thru tension, but after several nasty falls from the pony bronking like a wild mustang with the lightest child in the world on it's back. She must weigh all of 3 stone on a 13.2hh welsh B. Had terrible trouble getting a saddler out as child wouldnt ride and saddler insisted on pony being ridden - fair enough but I told saddler to bring his own rider with a back protector !! Saddle was fine, so had x-rays done and vet diagnosed kissing spines. Pony had injections and physio but still showed the same behaviour. Vet advised against surgery and said as it's a childs pony best option is to pts. Pony is now a field ornament!!
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lc
Olympic Poster
Posts: 670
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Post by lc on Jan 4, 2011 12:52:08 GMT 1
A friend horse was diagnosed with Kissing spine after xrays. She didn't show any really obvious sensitivity in her back, but did have a lump on her back and would walk down hills with a funny action. I got my friend to have my chiro take a look at her after she first got her as I wasn't happy with her back and the funny walk she did down hills. My chiro did suggest she may have kissing spine, but as the horse wasn't showing any problems the owner didn't pursue it. When my chiro next came up the horse had developed some neuological problems, the vet was called in a diagnosed shivers. The horse was a really lovely TB and never bucked or tried to get my friend off, but she did start to look a bit stiff and unlevel, so my chiro came back up again and she said she wouldn't treat her until the vet had looked at her as she wasn't happy with her action. She went off to the vets who manipulated her back, then assessed her on the lunge, and did flexion test and said she was lame on all four legs. He didn't think it was a back issue and x-rayed her legs but nothing came up, so as a final check because we wanted the back checked as the chiro had suggested kissing spine he finally x-rayed her back. The results showed the worst kissing spine he had ever seen. Approx 12 of her verterae were touching, from wither to croup. The option was to either retire her or carry on riding if she was buted and see how she went as she wasn't showing any obvious pain, but he was recommending neither course. the horse was retired as we all felt it was the kindest thing to do given the extent of the problem. treatment was not an option as too many vertebae were affected.
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