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Post by ghostrider on Jan 9, 2011 20:59:15 GMT 1
Kelly mentioned poisoned cues in a thread recently.
I saw a very interesting "real life" example of poisoned cues this weekend and thought I would share my observations.
I was teaching a dog training course - second session in on a six month course. We were working on "Downs" - initially the down had been taught using a lure and clicker, fading it to a hand signal and then, when the dog was responding consistently to a hand signal we were introducing the verbal cue "down" two seconds before the hand signal to allow the dogs to make the connection and learn to respond to the verbal cue alone.
One dog, who had been responding happily and consistently to the hand signal, completely changed his behaviour within a very short time of introducing the verbal cue "down". I was baffled, initially, as it was clear the dog was finding the training aversive - both his body language and a slowness to respond to the cue made that obvious - and yet he was still being positively reinforced by clicker and treats. Then I remembered that this dog had a history of jumping up on greeting, and realised he had probably been shouted at "get down" on numerous occasions. He had negative associations with the word "down" even though we were using it in a completely different context, and adding in treats. We confirmed this by dropping the verbal cue and reverting to the hand signal - almost immediately the dog began to respond exactly as he had previously.
I have to say, I am so grateful to the work of J R-R and Alex K for bringing this idea of poisoned cues into the public domain. If I hadn't seen this DVD I would never have so quickly recognised what was going on with this dog - I'd have thought he was ill, or wondered if the handler was doing something wrong. And I wouldn't have known what to do to be able to overcome the 'poisoning' of the word 'Down' and be able to teach the dog to respond to a verbal cue for a 'down' behaviour. I feel this is such an important concept in training, for dogs, and also for horses.
Of course, it is less likely that a horse would have a 'poisoned' association with a verbal cue - but a piece of equipment, physical signal, location or even a person could also be 'poisoned' and influence an animal's behaviour in a training situation, making it look as though the animal is being 'stubborn' or 'unwilling' - or even 'calm' and 'complacent' when infact something else entirely is going on.
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Post by anastasia55555 on Jan 9, 2011 21:33:45 GMT 1
Thanks for posting, very interesting and completely logical (to me anyway) when u stop to think. Our dogs often jump up and get told 'down' or 'get down' dont ask them to lye down that often more often sit. But il have to bear that in mind. Can also see what u mean with regards to horses too
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Post by Catrin on Jan 9, 2011 21:49:13 GMT 1
… when the dog was responding consistently to a hand signal we were introducing the verbal cue "down" two seconds before the hand signal to allow the dogs to make the connection and learn to respond to the verbal cue alone.… It's interesting what you mention about how cues can be poisoned and makes a lot of sense, a sort of superstitious conditioning in reverse as it isn't the behaviour that's conditioned, but the prompt for it. But I have a question about procedure as I don't seem to understand its logic. You taught the behaviour and clicked when you got it; you then added the hand signal and faded out the lure and click. Then you introduced a verbal cue which was 'new' two seconds before the hand signal. Why didn't you use the hand signal and the verbal cue simultaneously then fade out the hand signal once the verbal cue was established, like you had done to establish the hand signal originally? Why did you use a 'strange' word before the signal that previously elicited the behaviour? |
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Post by ghostrider on Jan 9, 2011 22:15:55 GMT 1
… when the dog was responding consistently to a hand signal we were introducing the verbal cue "down" two seconds before the hand signal to allow the dogs to make the connection and learn to respond to the verbal cue alone.… It's interesting what you mention about how cues can be poisoned and makes a lot of sense, a sort of superstitious conditioning in reverse as it isn't the behaviour that's conditioned, but the prompt for it. But I have a question about procedure as I don't seem to understand its logic. You taught the behaviour and clicked when you got it; you then added the hand signal and faded out the lure and click. Then you introduced a verbal cue which was 'new' two seconds before the hand signal. Why didn't you use the hand signal and the verbal cue simultaneously then fade out the hand signal once the verbal cue was established, like you had done to establish the hand signal originally? Why did you use a 'strange' word before the signal that previously elicited the behaviour? Hi Catrin you are right - it's the cue that is poisoned, and not the behaviour - and it is so important that people understand this  I can understand your confusion - it does seem counter-intuitive. I may not have been completely clear - We were still using the clicker when teaching the hand and verbal cues - only when the behaviour is on a verbal cue (the end goal) do we fade the clicker. The idea of introducing the 'new' cue two seconds before the 'old' cue is to allow the animal to make the association between the new and old cues. The animal learns to respond to the new cue, as it becomes a predictor for the old cue, which is a predictor for the reward. If we introduced the old cue first, the new cue would be over-shadowed - the animal would respond to the more familiar cue and the new cue would be superfluous and unimportant. As dogs are visual rather than verbal communicators (like horses), if we had given the cues simultaneously again the visual cue would have overshadowed the verbal cue and the dog would not have learned to respond to the verbal cue alone. hope this makes things a bit clearer modified bekaus I can't spel |
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Post by Catrin on Jan 9, 2011 22:35:59 GMT 1
… Why didn't you use the hand signal and the verbal cue simultaneously then fade out the hand signal once the verbal cue was established, like you had done to establish the hand signal originally?… … I may not have been completely clear - We were still using the clicker when teaching the hand and verbal cues - only when the behaviour is on a verbal cue (the end goal) do we fade the clicker.… hope this makes things a bit clearer Perfectly clear now - thanks. ;D |
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jan 10, 2011 16:23:18 GMT 1
Thank you for this.
Only on a slight tangent ... I suspect the word 'respect' has been poisoned for me because I have heard it when it could be used interchangeably with 'bullying'. In the same way I always (really sorry!) wince a bit when I hear about people 'playing' with their horse - the word just doesn't have good connotations to me - 'playing' with a horse seems a bit, well, disrespectful (?!) As someone who really enjoys their work, I'd prefer to talk about working horses - I would expect loads of good feelings from a horse who has worked well - invigorated, fulfilled, satisfied.
A German student told me in Germany they no longer use the equivalent word of 'leader' because Hitler was a 'leader'. In America it's rude to talk 'to' someone - even your horse - you should talk 'with' them.
How complicated is communication eh? And nowadays we can't even have a conversation with our horse or dog without worrying we've messed up!
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Post by laurac on Jan 10, 2011 16:29:31 GMT 1
Very enlightening thread, thank you hadnt heard of this before, make you think (when i read the title i thought..... poisoned cucumbers in the supermarkets?  yes i'm blonde) lol |
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Post by HolsBols on Jan 10, 2011 17:32:53 GMT 1
LOL Laurac Very interesting thread!! I always knew there must be a reason i used "Off" for jumping up, off the bed/sofa and "down" for lie down lol i love it when people explain why i do things that i just sort of do without thinking!!  |
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Amanda Seater
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Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
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Post by Amanda Seater on Jan 10, 2011 18:05:55 GMT 1
Itis interesting.
kelly it is interesting you see the word "play" as disrespectful or perhaps poisoned.
I use the word "play"when working with the horses as I have found to many people have the word "work" as a negative in that work is forced uponan individual.
Tis surely a crazy world!
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Post by ghostrider on Jan 10, 2011 21:47:12 GMT 1
lol - poisoned cucumbers - love it!!
yes, it is interesting what is poisoned for us, as well as for animals ...
I can understand where Kelly is coming from (I think) regarding "respect" and "play" - for me, it's the word "games" as well - because sometimes I don't think the horses have much fun "playing" the "games" people have devised for them (although hopefully for many horses training is fun, pleasurable and can, perhaps be described as a game).
A behaviourist who I work with sometimes and have a lot of "respect" for (yikes) says that instead of thinking about training or even teaching our animals we should think about explaining things to them - then the onus is on us to make clear communications.
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jan 10, 2011 22:36:22 GMT 1
"A behaviourist who I work with sometimes and have a lot of "respect" for (yikes) says that instead of thinking about training or even teaching our animals we should think about explaining things to them - then the onus is on us to make clear communications."
Really good point - and to be clear - I know there is nothing wrong with the words play and respect - it's just how words can become 'poisoned' and on the other hand Pie likes nothing more than me 'bringing a big stick to him' - because it invariably has an apple stuck to the end of it!
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Post by SarahW on Jan 10, 2011 22:50:59 GMT 1
I know the word respect from my days at a lawyer and it usually meant with the utmost disrespect! "With respect my learned friend has just........" (read been an idiot!).
I'm not sure I like explain all that much. I like ask but I am told that ask is a weasel word. If we had to build in a complete definition of everything we meant as we worked/played/interacted with our horses/ clients, the critical moment might have long passed.
I really hope that this degree of analysis does make the world a better place for horses soon. I watched a program about India the other night and there they were removing yards and yards of half digested plastic from the stomach of a very poorly cow using fairly crude surgical techniques and I did then think that perhaps our horses have it quite easy....
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Post by Zoe RA on Jan 10, 2011 22:55:49 GMT 1
LOL Laurac Very interesting thread!! I always knew there must be a reason i used "Off" for jumping up, off the bed/sofa and "down" for lie down lol i love it when people explain why i do things that i just sort of do without thinking!!
Me too HolsBols - for that very reason. You can't expect a dog to have the same command for a different action
Having said that, I do know a couple of dogs who have names which prohibit the use "off" if proceded by their names  Lol! |
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Post by fiddydodah on Jan 10, 2011 23:45:54 GMT 1
Hi All
Interesting reading on poisoned cues. I had never really thought about it with horses but had had experience with the dogs before, as while working with Rescue dogs and their new homes I would often change the Cue commands if there was a concern that the dogs had come from an abusive home. I.e. instead Down or sit the owner would be asked to choose a word they would like to use and could remember, Ham and sausages have been used before!! Doesn't quite roll off the tongue for me as an English speaking human but it suited the owners and the dogs certainly never had a problem.
Interesting that this could cause a concern with abused horses if we used the words "Stand" or "Lift" and then think of how an abuser of horses could have made that horse perform that action and what adverse, even dangerous, behaviour maybe given! Scarey.
Or could a Poisoned Cue maybe trigger Learned Helplessness.............? hum, can tell I've just done my psychology weekend! (Thank you Kelly had a fab time. from an ASBO!)
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jan 11, 2011 4:19:52 GMT 1
There's another word that's misfired - ASBO - if people tell me they have ASBOs next door now I'll be thinking "how lovely - what a good fun group of people they are!"
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yes i'm blonde) lol 
Lol!