Socialising a very nasty little gelding

[mandal]

Have to second cookie's post here. The gelding is being a horse and whatever his issues they are real to him.

Tbh it sounds to me that the best option is to put him out alone over the winter and let the owner help him when he gets settled in a permanant home. Will your YO agree to lone turn out while he's there Mel?

[Mellymoo]

I know it's not the pony's fault that he behaves this way, but 6 weeks of tending minor injuries, and this week more serious ones, is starting to get wearing. I have tried to explain to her that it should be on its own until the snow melts (I think boredom makes it all worse) but she won't have it. I will just have to keep moving my boy when I go to the yard - she turns out before I can get there. Moving yards not an option - cannot afford anywhere else, and nowhere locally has room anyway.

YO is off tomorrow, so will have a word when I see her. I don't think it's fair to penalise my boy by turning out alone, but at least he would be alive. The fact that the exmoor does not even have to be at the yard is what really annoys me I think. It'll be fine, I just wish there was a way to help the exmoor integrate with others better - I feel sad that his future looks like it may have to be solitary turn out :-(

[jen1]

i think he must feel very insecure ,most horses ive seen come and go within my herd have been sorted pretty sort thrift, the ones that have remained out of control longer are the ones who are insecure ,insecure enough to be very proactive , take my billie mare who is very dominant but only has to wrinkle her nose to keep her herd in order, she is 25 now so couldnt kick her heel up much nowadays anyway , she to me is the true meaning of domanance, ones that runs round like a headless chuck trying to find a space within the pecking order and failing misrabaly feel insecure ,he either needs a match like for like or one like jiggy who would take no shiit, or one who knows how to get out of the way, send him to me mel jiggy would have his but whipped in no time and if he doesnt jiggy could do with his whooping too, fetch him down a peg or 2, i think thats the only way to tackle it, that and a huge amount of space, excersise might help too,

[jen1]

also are these the ones who were not introduced oroperly in the begining, seperation might be the key for a long time but do it with gelding in the middle of the herd seprated by some kind of fencing, a triangle works well ,

[lassiesuca]

I don't think there is any need to be quite so nasty about the horse :/ ...

I don't know this horse- but what if he has had a bad past? You know when you meet people who have been poorly treated ( i.e abused etc) and they take their pent up aggression out on others. Instead of being nasty about him, speak to his owner about the horses past. Find out whether or not he was mis-treated. If he is, then keep him away from other horses for a while and try and use positive reinforcement- show him things aren't bad and reward him for being nice to horses ( i.e bring them in the stable yard and if he walks past other horses without kicking/squealing etc, reward him). Teach him that being nice is far more rewarding than being aggressive.

I think though, one has to remember horses can be horses, my boy is out with three other horses- a gelding and two mares. Luca is the top dog in our field and for a 14hh pony, he is very confrontational ( when we had a Shire horse arrive, Luca was chasing him!). When our filly, Cassie arrived, we had to keep her in because he beat her up. But when we were around, we kept an eye on them and watched them socialize... eventually they accepted each other. Luca would be chasing them around, but we would reward him for being gentle around other horses. They now are like best buddies- but it takes time.

[mandal]

Dec 28, 2010 0:06:26 GMT 1 Mellymoo said:

YO is off tomorrow, so will have a word when I see her. I don't think it's fair to penalise my boy by turning out alone, but at least he would be alive.

I actually meant the Exmoor fella out on his own. I thought this might be the best solution as helping him while he's at this yard doesn't sound like you'd have any support so to me it sounds like a damage limitations exercise as he isn't going to be with you permanently.

It must be very frustrating and worrying and tbh your YO isn't imo showing a duty of care to the other horses.
Hope Jos is ok.

[jaxnbreeze]

Considering that she has already been made aware of the situation is the YO legally responsible should there be a serious accident to either horse and owner on her premises? Perhaps a written complaint might wake her up to what is happening. I feel very sorry for this horse who obviously needs help and someone to take on that responsibility but injuring others is only making matters worse. I feel really sorry for you too Mellymoo as I have been at the mercy of stupid YOs in the past - it's like sending your children to a dreadful school and feeling stuck with it. If nothing is done about it very soon I would consider finding somewhere else although that isn't always easy. I am afraid there are many fatal accidents involving people being kicked in the head when in a field of excited horses so please take care. Jax

[twilight]

This sounds like a difficult situation all round.I do feel very sorry for this poor pony .I suspect from what you say ,if he has been used for conservation he has had a very large area to roam in, maybe all he has ever known ? .If he is now in a much smaller area he will find this very difficult to adjust too.He will have been used to being able to search for a wide variety of vegetation which will have fulfilled his exploring and acquisition needs.Again if he is now in a much smaller paddock that doesn't have the same type of enrichment that he is used to he will be very bored and very frustrated and he will probably be redirecting this aggression onto his field mates .If he has been a stallion for 7 years the effect of castration on his hormones wont be as effective on him,he'll still be feeling the need to carry out stallion duties ( even if he can't reproduce anymore ) .He may have had very little socialisation with others , as we all know , stallions are often kept away from others at a young age unless he was being used for breeding.All in all this has ended up in him being a very upset and confused and frustrated little man trying to now fit in to a human dominated world.He must be pitied not hated. I can also however quite understand the feelings of the other owners, no one wants to turn their horses out with another if there is an unusually high chance of their horse getting bullied or hurt to a severe degree , so i can also understand Mellymoos frustration and concern.
It is hard to come to a compromise in such a situation if the owner isn't willing to take advise from a highly qualified and experienced person who has dealt with these situations before.
In my opinion the pony may be best for the short term to be kept separate , however his field must be enriched as much as possible for him to be able to act out his natural behaviours.Positive ground training and handling would help him to learn how to solve puzzles , all to keep his brain active .Once he has settled I do think it is possible to be able for him to be introduced very carefully to perhaps another young gelding of his same age perhaps but for this I think the owner would have to take good advise from an expert.He doesn't have to live his life on his own forever but the owner does have to realise what she has taken on and stop trying to make him conform to a normal livery yard setting.He isn't your average horse and needs careful management for him not to go out of his mind.He sounds as though he is very intelligent and could make a wonderful horse for the right owner.
Melly moo , all you can do is try to keep your horse separate but encourage the owner to get proper help with him and have a strong word with the yard owner so she doesn't take it upon herself to add horses willynilly to his field as horses coming and going in with him wont help the situation at all.

good luck

[outoftheblue]

I think the Exmoor needs blood testing to see if the gelding has failed - maybe a bit of tissue left in? You would then know for sure if there wasa 'riggy' problem. My new boy who turned out to be a stallion after blood tests is not aggressive with others however. Is there any way you could move your horse before something goes really wrong? Good luck.

[Mellymoo]

Thanks for all your advice and support everyone . We know the pony's full history - he has never been abused, has always been used to humans, and has spent most of his life in the same 5 acre field with a companion. He is currently out in 10 acres, with plenty of things in the field to do and look at. He probably is insecure I suppose, as he seems so wound up all the time. I had to rescue Jos again today when I went down to muck out, YO went out just after I arrived (surprise surprise). She had to go rescue her pony when she came back though - it seems traumatised like Jos was last week, so hopefully she will do something useful now and sort the situation out.

I hope no one has the wrong idea in all this - I do not hate the pony, I hate the fact that it beats hell out of Jos all day and cuts him open. I hate the situation we are all in, not the pony itself. When I think back to the summer, when the pony was turned out alone but could see and touch the others, it was a lot less stressed. I may use this as a tactic tomorrow if I need to, but I hope that when I go down my chap will be separate from the other one.

[twilight]

I'm sorry for presuming you hated him , the words '' the little sod and the nasty little exmoor '' made me think you didn't think well of him. Apologies.

Can you explain how he was used for conservation grazing if he has only ever been on 5 acres of grazing ? sorry for being a bit dim :-)

[anastasia55555]

I guess we all say things in anger and worry, and not 'really' mean it, i know i would be saying something similar if i was in Mellymoo's situ, but i know really i wouldnt hate the poor thing but i would hate the situation

[Mellymoo]

Our conservation grazing up here can be from 2 acres to 20, depending on the site. Basically, the guy who's field he has been in wanted him as a stallion, and now he is gelded because he failed the inspection, he is unwanted. The wee pony is on his own today, but he can see and touch all the others over the fence. It is like a big sigh of relief for everyone ;D Jos was sleeping when I left the yard, and the wee pony is munching some hay. He is right next to the stables, so he got a wee hug this morning from me.

I know I called the pony a little sod, but to be fair I call my own pony a sod sometimes as well. I couldn't think of anything nicer to call him after having to clean a load of blood off my poor chap! Anyway, now that my boy is safe, I am happy and will now call the wee pony nice things

[milo]

my new horse was the same when he first arrived frightened the life out of me, he even had milo pinned to the floor which is no mean feat as hes so huge,he kicked, he fought and was generally evil to everyone, even our dominant mare who loved him on site and dumped milo right away,they now all graze happily and love one another, it just took time for them all get used to them, it was herd politics although very scary to watch!

[mmel001]

There's one at my yard that likes to cause trouble with all the other horses. When I first moved there he was put out with my youngster, and all throughout the summer I had the vet up looking at injuries. I hoped they would sort it out. I started to look forward to winter as that meant mine would go in with others. The one mine was in with needs to stay nearer to the yard as his owner is in a wheelchair and can't get through the fields of mud.

Anyway, his owner now has some help, so our YO decided that he should go back out with a herd again, and chose my group. As soon as he went back out, injuries started and rugs got ripped. After 2 horses were badly injured owners started complaining and we've now managed to get the chap moved to a field of turn out by himself (there are horses around him). He seems happier but does still try and attack any horse that happens to put it's head over the fence into his field.

It's a difficult situation, but it is something your YO should be sorting. Especially if your YO is aware of the damage that this pony is doing to others. If you are paying to keep your horse there then it really is your yard owners responsibility in my eyes. I'd threaten them with having to pay the vets bills if it came to it.

I don't know much about how behaviour changes once a stallion has been gelded later in life. I used to work at a yard though where they had a 4 year old stallion gelded and he was a handful for quite some time after, and still seemed to think he was in tact! He wasn't nasty he was just incredibly territorial and the turnout had to be carefully managed so we didn't have to walk through his field etc.