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Post by Lady Equine on Dec 21, 2010 14:56:09 GMT 1
Interesting thread, being as lightness is key with April. I find myself playing with levels of lightness and reaction. To her leg on in the saddle to take a contact is a sign to move forward, so having played with levels of touch i am learning about her levels of sensitivity. On the ground she responds instantly, to move back or over a hand on the shoulder or chest with no pressure works, if i am infront of her to fasten rugs she will automatically move back. having her feet picked out they are lifted and waiting without request.
I know of someone who used feathers to lift feet, he struggled and horse would lean on him, so i pulled a bit of persons hair to lift his head one day and he said ouch that hurt, so i said now you know what your horse would be saying if he could speak..!! He now uses a tap at the back of the heel and horses feet are offered and he dosen't lean.
LE x
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Post by rj on Dec 21, 2010 16:11:08 GMT 1
Re Jes/HolsBols - or anyone :-) .............. are they just reading your intention?
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Post by jes on Dec 21, 2010 16:25:00 GMT 1
Possibly rj. Gonna test it out tonight.
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Post by petethebee on Dec 21, 2010 16:53:20 GMT 1
We train all ours to work to voice commands too. This is because it is essential when driving, especially without whips. I know of a horse that will lift feet very willingly but in a set order. If you want to pick up a foot out of sync. she gets confused. It's important to vary the sequence when training so that this doesn't happen. Too much lightness will as Rosie pointed out to someone cause problems when some-one else comes to riding or handling the horse though.
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Post by nich on Dec 21, 2010 17:13:36 GMT 1
don't forget that if a horse isn't offering something its not always a training issue it can be physical. our new horse wasn't great with her feet at 1st, we tried spanish rather than english to ask which helped, then she got gradually better, but we noticed her near fore is still hard for her, and the near hind she can snatch. our bodyworker confirmed she has issues which cause her to put her weight through the left fore, and that she twists her left hind. chiro visit planned!
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Post by HolsBols on Dec 21, 2010 17:16:11 GMT 1
Re Jes/HolsBols - or anyone :-) .............. are they just reading your intention? is that not the point of lightness??
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 21, 2010 17:42:03 GMT 1
michellep said: So, I'm wondering if you're perhaps 'hearing' but maybe not 'listening' to him? There's a principle that really helps in interpersonal communication - the meaning of a communication is the response that you get. You are giving an aid and your horse is responding - that's good and he's being a good (responsive) boy! The only problem is the response is not the one you were hoping for. You can either listen to the response and change the communication or... keep doing the same thing and expect a different response What response do you get to the 'more subtle' leg aids? (And which aids are we talking about, anyway?) Derek
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2010 18:02:01 GMT 1
So, I'm wondering if you're perhaps 'hearing' but maybe not 'listening' to him? That's what the TTouch approach is about really. Like with the saddle, when I carried it to him if he tensed at all I had to back off to show him I was listening. I've done the same with mounting and am now trying to do the same with my putting my leg on. You can either listen to the response and change the communication or... keep doing the same thing and expect a different response I've tried changing the quality of the touch of my leg. He's better with a gentle 'push' in time with his belly. Any tapping or nudging he can't stand. He'll accept about the same amount of pressure as a hamster would (seriously!!), any more and he starts to think about chucking me. He's not the same in-hand though, he doesn't have any problems with touch from my hand when doing in-hand lateral work or body work. What response do you get to the 'more subtle' leg aids? (And which aids are we talking about, anyway?) Once when he shied I momentarily forgot which horse I was riding and gave him a gentle squeeze for encouragement and he chucked me! Normally if I touch his sides with both of my calves and pair it with 'walk on' he tenses his whole barrel and sometimes rounds his back. With Rosie's help I managed to get him to accept one leg at a time, he'll walk circles and step out off my inside leg if I apply it then release with the swing of his belly. He'll speed up his walk with my using alternate legs in time with his belly too. But I did come a cropper by using one leg to encourage forwards movement, Rosie got him doing upward transitions off one leg, but then he got confused as to whether it meant forwards or sideways and chucked me again!
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Post by june on Dec 21, 2010 19:41:59 GMT 1
Re: being 'too light' when riding... There's a huge difference between 'lightness' and a horse that won't accept touch (aka 'contact'). I think that's the difference between soft and light. A horse that is light will respond to "light" aids and is often described as sensitive. A horse that is soft will respond to "light" aids, will accept touch and feels quite different throughout the whole of its body. To me softness is a better feeling than lightness.
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Post by gillee on Dec 21, 2010 20:27:26 GMT 1
Hi Michellep - Your TTouch work sounds good; nice to hear that your horse is responding well to it. Sad to read about the fear of the indoor school though x
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2010 20:36:16 GMT 1
Thanks gillee, it is sad, my horse is the prime example of why people shouldn't send their horses away to be backed without really knowing the trainer, and that the trainer having won medals and ridden at HOYS is no guarantee that they are any good I'm certain that his issue with the leg aids is becuase of something they did to him when he was backed but I have no idea what they could have done. It's absolutely clear that when I try new things with him (that that trainer didn't do) he's relaxed and willing and easy to handle but as soon as I revisit things they did with him he's tense, nervous and very easy to push into an all out panic.
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Post by jes on Dec 21, 2010 20:41:24 GMT 1
Ok picking up feet. I do give a signal when I want them to pick up their feet. I touch the leg behind the knee or just below the hock. Literally just a touch. Didn't even realise that's what I did. Interesting thread.
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Post by gillee on Dec 21, 2010 20:55:47 GMT 1
hi again Michellep - I was just reading some of your other posts. Your horse sounds like a real sweetie and reminds me of one of my ponies who is incredibly sensitive - She is a remedial pony who was apparently sold as backed! a very loose description now- a - days!!! and then I got a call from the people who bought her, asking for my help, saying that she had objected to having a rider on and seemed to have a problem with anything above her!
She responded really well in just only one session which by the end she was accepting me standing next to her on both sides on a mounting block with me feeling/ rubbing gently all over her neck, back and shoulders. As a result of this, she then captured the interest of someone else at the yard and so went on to be owned by them.
However, last winter the owner decided that having a horse was taking up too much time which they didn't have and so I decided to let her live at mine with my small herd, giving me much opportunity and time to work incrementally with her. I have to say she is a real sweetie and has taught me so much! I have to be incredibly soft and light with her and give her a lot of time and space to figure things out. She has shown me that there is a very fine line with regards to stretching her comfort zone by tiny amounts and it all being too much for her, and I have worked hard on trying to predict exactly where this line is and then obviously I try to avoid crossing it. If I do mess up and the line is crossed I quickly try and go back to something she is completely comfortable with to help her feel good and keep her confidence up.
I believe that her reaction is partly a result of how she was perhaps attempted to be backed in the first place, and then being pushed too quickly, by which I mean handlers trying to take her onto the next stage before she was completely comfortable with the stage she was at.
However, she is doing really well and is incredibly responsive, but although she is much more relaxed, I still get the feeling that her responsiveness still stems from a dread of getting it wrong. I hope that in time she will start to feel that she can do no wrong.
It sounds like you are doing a great job with the TTouch xx
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2010 11:18:54 GMT 1
I believe that her reaction is partly a result of how she was perhaps attempted to be backed in the first place, and then being pushed too quickly, by which I mean handlers trying to take her onto the next stage before she was completely comfortable with the stage she was at. Hiya, I think that's really key with my boy too. It's such a difficult line to tread becasue he's such a clever little lad that he gets bored easily, but I'm doing exactly the same, trying to stretch him a teeny little bit then repeat until he's able to stay relaxed throughout, then stretch him a teeny bit more.
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Post by mandal on Dec 22, 2010 13:56:18 GMT 1
She has shown me that there is a very fine line with regards to stretching her comfort zone by tiny amounts and it all being too much for her, and I have worked hard on trying to predict exactly where this line is and then obviously I try to avoid crossing it. This describes Bracken to a tee. I've learned so much about 'reading' him and how small to go. As well as the dreadfully horrid reaction to the saddle/girth he was very tense generally and tended to freeze and then explode when he just couldn't bear it anymore. I've made light of his bucking on the other thread but it was a very distressing time for both of us. Looking back I feel sad how ham fisted and clumsy I was for him. We've both come a long way at our speed (dead slow lol) over the years.
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