Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Dec 21, 2010 0:12:56 GMT 1
Re: being 'too light' when riding... There's a huge difference between 'lightness' and a horse that won't accept touch (aka 'contact'). A horse used to being ridden in lightness will respond to light aids but also tolerate the odd accidental 'shout' without getting upset as well as accepting a firmer touch when the rider deems it appropriate. Touch can be 'light, gentle or firm' and they all have a place. Most of the time, riders don't learn how to use light touch, they either use a firmer touch or avoid the touch altogether. That's not at all the same thing as lightness. Firmer touch that doesn't make sense or aids used in ways that are self-contradictory are a problem... D'you think perhaps he might be trying to tell you something... ? Best wishes, Derek
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Post by gillee on Dec 21, 2010 3:05:19 GMT 1
I had forgotten that saying "The more you do, the more you have to do, while the less you do, the less you have to do" - now you have got me thinking!!!!!
One thing that might be useful to add to the comments about lightness is how when we ask something of the horse quite often if we don't get an immediate, or what we would would perceive as `quick' response then we often try and `do' something else, either asking more, or trying something perhaps different. I have found that having the courage and belief in waiting after the first `ask' and I mean waiting, sometimes as much as 30seconds+ often really helps. You can see the horse processing and thinking things through and more often than not will offer back something along the lines of what you want if not the very thing you are asking. Just a thought anyway which completely fascinates me everytime. The ask has to be really clear and concise though.
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Post by anastasia55555 on Dec 21, 2010 7:30:02 GMT 1
Thanks Derek! :-D i would love to take part in one of Kelly's courses but currently they are a long and distant dream at the moment :-(
il have a search on ih members tho :-)
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Post by mandal on Dec 21, 2010 11:09:37 GMT 1
I had forgotten that saying "The more you do, the more you have to do, while the less you do, the less you have to do" - now you have got me thinking!!!!! One thing that might be useful to add to the comments about lightness is how when we ask something of the horse quite often if we don't get an immediate, or what we would would perceive as `quick' response then we often try and `do' something else, either asking more, or trying something perhaps different. I have found that having the courage and belief in waiting after the first `ask' and I mean waiting, sometimes as much as 30seconds+ often really helps. You can see the horse processing and thinking things through and more often than not will offer back something along the lines of what you want if not the very thing you are asking. Just a thought anyway which completely fascinates me everytime. The ask has to be really clear and concise though. Ditto this. Also as I've got better at reading the slightest 'try'/response I find being light much, much more effective, probably because I'm actually listening rather than ignoring (horses view possibly), then repeating the same request, so confusing and frustrating the horse. 'What DO you want then?' says horse! Does that make sense?
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Post by mandal on Dec 21, 2010 11:15:42 GMT 1
I have a physical signal to ask for lift your foot please with most of my horses mainly because Bracken especially would anticipate my asking by my postition next to him. This was fine until I wanted his foot on the floor so I could inspect a mark on his hoof wall. ;D Training a cue to lift is important imo. Of course this can be verbal and I was going to move on to this but haven't bothered.
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Post by HolsBols on Dec 21, 2010 11:49:56 GMT 1
I use voice commands on hols. When asking her to pick up her feet i also say "this one" while bent and if she isnt sure the lightest tap with finger tips to the bottom of her leg to reinforce it. Once the first has been lifted she then knows the rest are about to be lifted. I can also change the order without it being an issue for her. She knows a palm down touch is me feeling her leg for injuries etc and stands still. she also knows back up, move over (away from where im standing) and wait. We can leave her stable door open and although she is desperate to leave she knows she doesnt step foot out the stable without a "come on then" Can also go from walk to gallop with a simple "Go on then!!" when riding and a slow down with a wooooaaaaahhhhh We are very proud of the fact people who ride her for the first time comment on just how responsive she is to the rider and the fact she has carbon disk brakes!!!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2010 12:19:13 GMT 1
Gillee - totally agree about waiting sometimes for them to process your request Derek - my horse has been screaming at me for over a year now and I'm doing my best but he refuses to speak English lol! My latest method is TTouch, my TTouch practitioner found he had a sore back which various others missed and we've been using TTouch to help him heal and show him the saddle doesn't hurt anymore. He's really accepting the saddle now which he's never done before. I'm now just starting to ride again using TTouch wraps round his sides so he feels more protected and secure and that seems to be really helping him. Sadly it is very difficult with him to know where his fear stops and where the pain or memory of pain start. Three years after he was backed he is still scared of indoor schools because he was backed in one so I know he's still bearing the emotional scars, despite some people telling me emotional issues heal much quicker than physical. Anyhow, that's a whole different thread!
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Bay Mare
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Speak to the hoof
Posts: 1,818
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Post by Bay Mare on Dec 21, 2010 12:47:26 GMT 1
Have to say the best and most wonderful lightness I've managed has been when doing groundwork with the clicker, way beyond anything I could have achieved using pressure and release. I've found that too. Saffy backs up from a finger 'waggle', you don't need to even touch her. Feet are the same, the most I do is to stroke her shoulder for the first leg then she'll lift the others up once I've moved into position.
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Post by mandal on Dec 21, 2010 13:02:00 GMT 1
I do use voice commands for other things but I'm not as advanced as you Holsbols. Some stuff to aim for.
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Post by HolsBols on Dec 21, 2010 13:42:43 GMT 1
I do use voice commands for other things but I'm not as advanced as you Holsbols. Some stuff to aim for. LOL!!! thanks so much mandal but i certainly wouldnt call myself advanced!! I am just very lucky that i have an ultra senstivie horse who listens... she makes me look good!!
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Post by rj on Dec 21, 2010 13:57:06 GMT 1
Well Mandal, this is another discussion perhaps, but (why/how) are voice commands more advanced or sensitive than body language? I don't think they are. If the lightest of cues is the requirement, then that starts with the thought, then on to......what? It would be interesting to experiment with keeping mouths closed and just using non-verbal communication the same way that a horse usually would. Having said that I am totally in awe of the fabulously trained Western horses (hi there Copy) who move to a click and stop to a 'Whoa'. I want to know how it is achieved and over what period. Must go back to Mendip ;-)
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Post by mandal on Dec 21, 2010 14:03:34 GMT 1
Well Mandal, this is another discussion perhaps, but (why/how) are voice commands more advanced or sensitive than body language? I don't think they are. If the lightest of cues is the requirement, then that starts with the thought, then on to......what? It would be interesting to experiment with keeping mouths closed and just using non-verbal communication the same way that a horse usually would. Having said that I am totally in awe of the fabulously trained Western horses (hi there Copy) who move to a click and stop to a 'Whoa'. I want to know how it is achieved and over what period. Must go back to Mendip ;-) Good question rj. I actually meant advanced with my voice cue training. I use mostly gestures but I still don't have the training Holsbols has in place. To me advanced means having the ability to ask your horse with the ligtest cue you can to do lots of different stuff. I didn't mean voice in itself was necessarily advanced. I've heard some pretty awful voice cues totally ignored by horses. Mta. I'm working on speed control atm btw with Sophie. Mind you on the ground loose not ridden.
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Post by HolsBols on Dec 21, 2010 14:41:23 GMT 1
ill have to try it without any voice aids, see what i manage then lol
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Post by jes on Dec 21, 2010 14:42:27 GMT 1
Going back to lifting feet up I've just realised that my horses only pick their feet up when I want them to. If I just want to feel their legs or feet rather than pick them up they keep them on the ground. I have no idea what I do to tell them I want them to pick their feet up but they certainly know the difference. I shall observe what I do this evening!
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Post by HolsBols on Dec 21, 2010 14:44:51 GMT 1
i know when im feeling their legs i crouch down but when i pick their feet up i bend from waist. Perhaps its that??
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