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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2010 9:45:50 GMT 1
Not a dunce question at all...
It's a shame there's such a waiting list for mandal's Pete Ramey DVDs - they'd really help you.
In essence, though, the equine foot grows in response to stimulation and to where it feels it needs protection. So, you get hoof wall, sole, bars, all growing in the way that the foot feels necessary. So, for some reason, Snip's feet feel they need that extra at the back (and particularly on the outsides). Why? Probably in response to the way he is using himself, but then he might be using himself in response to his feet.
What a good EP should do is read what the foot is saying about how the horse is using himself and as well as helping the foot look good, and should trim him to encourage him to use himself in a way that the foot will heal so that the horse can work correctly so that the foot can maintain itself properly so that...
And that is why soundness isn't the key factor. I saw a little pony this week who had distorted feet. His frogs nearly touched his toes and one bar was almost to the point of his frog on one side while it was barely perceptible on the other. He was sound, on all surfaces, and his owner was surprised when I said I thought there was a problem with his feet. It was only because he can be a bit pully having his legs handled that we looked at them at all. In time, this pony would go lame, I'm sure. It might take a year, it might take more or less. Hopefully, though, we've caught it early and he will stay sound.
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Post by Casper on Jan 2, 2010 11:33:38 GMT 1
I've nothing constructive to add to this thread. But wanted to applaud Trouble for everything she has done, and continues to do, for Snip. For being so open and honest about the issues, and for therefore giving us all the opportunity to learn.
I really hope that there is a solution to all this and that you and Snip get the break you both deserve
xx
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Post by jennyb on Jan 2, 2010 11:44:35 GMT 1
I completely agree with LizP. Having an imbalance in a hoof, however minor, is not desirable. Sometimes it's conformational, and the trimmer or farrier has to do their best, but often it can be corrected. A hoof imbalance *will* put pressure on the horse's legs and cause compensatory problems. Horses can be sound with imbalanced hooves, but it doesn't mean that damage is not occurring and accruing. Trouble, I think you're doing the best thing by looking at this problem holistically. I think there is probably more than one factor at work here, and knowing that ultimately you would like Snip to be a competition horse and do dressage, then IMHO he needs to be functioning at his very best in every respect to enable him to do well and stay sound.
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Post by mandal on Jan 2, 2010 11:54:59 GMT 1
I've been looking at the barefoot pics on these sites, and the only really obvious (I can see other differences but I'm talking 'jump out and bite me' obvious) is that Snip's hooves sort of continue round to form a more complete circle, at the heels, whereas the 'good' barefoot pics are more open at the back. Meaning that Snips hoof sort of digs into the soft heel/bulbs right? Gosh you're so observant! I think this is what peeps on the other thread meant when they mentioned that Snip's heels were a bit contracted. I do agree that getting everything about Snip as good as possible will help him. I'm sure Trouble doesn't think the feet are causing the ulcers but one of the causes of ulcers is 'stress' so trying to eliminate any possible stress on his mind and body has to help him surely. I think though Snip's feet are good compared to many Trimmers see so perhaps some peeps feel tinkering with them is not a priority atm.
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Post by Yann on Jan 2, 2010 12:05:49 GMT 1
What you're spotting is what are described as contracted heels, or contraction in the back of the foot. Slight contraction particularly in front feet is pretty common , and heels being too long are one of the main causes (shod or otherwise). Not a major cause for concern unless it's severe and it can often be improved to some degree.
Regular trimming is obviously a good idea, but any unshod horse with less than perfect conformation will often quickly wear the hoof slightly out of balance mediolaterally between trims, and no amount of trimming or bodywork will correct it in the long term. Given that the horse is cutting what it needs for its own movement I'm not sure how detrimental is actually is? You obviously wouldn't allow things to go too far but I can't help wondering if it's a factor in why unshod horses often appear to move better than shod ones.
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Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by Trouble on Jan 2, 2010 12:31:32 GMT 1
Exactly Mandal!
Sorting his feedin hasn't stopped the ulcers changing his lifestyle to suit hasn't stopped the ulcers Trying pretty much every proven supplement hasn't stopped the ulcers a long list of alternative therapies hasn't stopped the ulcers removing every source of stress (that's possible to remove) hasn't stopped the ulcers.
So I have 2 options... 1) I have him PTS. And believe me, that option looks pretty rosy at the moment. 2) I investigate the smallest little quirks and imperfections and hope I get lucky and one of those things turns out to be the cause.
When the obvious stuff don't work, you either give up or look for the non obvious, surely?
Oh, there is a third - I win the lottery and keep him on Gastrogard for the rst of his life - and all the liver support supplements to prevent that going toxic again. (yes, really - I have all the luck!)
Think we all know that option 1 and 2 are the only real world options, so as you can see, I don't exactly have a whole world of paths to take!!
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Post by geeup on Jan 2, 2010 12:59:25 GMT 1
Trouble as someone who also has been down this path, keep going, trust your instinct and congrats on being an owner your horse must be proud off. remember horses are just like humans, there not perfect and you can always find something wrong, in the end we decided to muddle thorugh our problems and move yards and get another one on loan, fully fit with no hang ups (Ok some problmes as always!), the later was the making of the pony in many ways, she prefers the new yard its quietier, we go up more often and spend longer there and the other pony is braver and leads the way a lot, ....but she still hates the bit! I think you have eliminated all physical problems, how about trying physciological ones. be proud trouble
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Post by Debbie Glennan on Jan 2, 2010 14:51:37 GMT 1
I just wanted to give a public pat on the back to Trouble for being a very special horse owner indeed, i'm sure all your hard work and dedication will pay off.... eventually!!
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Post by june on Jan 2, 2010 15:11:54 GMT 1
I know you've been down the feeding path already but it might be worth revisiting that yet again. What are you feeding at the moment?
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Post by mandal on Jan 2, 2010 15:21:32 GMT 1
I know you've been down the feeding path already but it might be worth revisiting that yet again. What are you feeding at the moment? I do think it's worth a whole reassessment tbh! Sorry Trouble I know you have done it again and again. I can't imagine your frustration. The other thing I wondered is about the current boxwalking. I know this seems to be a symptom Snip displays when he gets ulcers but the box walking in itself will be stressful/caused by stress, so is not helping. Is there anything management wise like a barn with another horse or 27/7 turnout with hay that might stop this in the meantime?
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Post by june on Jan 2, 2010 15:53:03 GMT 1
We've got a horse on box rest at the moment and he gets a treat ball in the stable which keeps him occupied for hours. He's gets totally engrossed in moving the ball around. Could you try one of those to keep him occupied in his stable, if you haven't already done that. Another thing we've done for horses on box rest is fill a hay net and hang it up so it swings and hide carrots, parsnips etc in it. It takes the horse a while to get them out so it keeps them occupied for ages too. I know Snip isn't on box rest but that might help the boxwalking
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Post by Yann on Jan 2, 2010 16:06:04 GMT 1
Apologies if you've already tried it but a stable mirror might be worth a go too?
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Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Trouble on Jan 2, 2010 16:53:57 GMT 1
Tried all above. Barn isn't possible at this yard but we tried that at old yard and it did no good. Mirror scared him sh!tless, he has a ball but won't use it, he's had the ball for 3 years, so not a case of perservering either! lol
He's not allowed carrots because of the sugars, and he won't eat parsnips (ironic considering his name) I give him swedes to play with, but he get's bored of them quite quickly.
Feed - the main bulk of the feed is Graze On, with added soaked Alfabeet to dampen it down.
He gets Simple Systems Lucie brix, which he loves and will dig through his trug to find it and it is the only thing that holds his attention.
Supplements - he's on a general vitamin supplement and a digestive aid/ulcer prevention herbal mix (I've tried lots and this one was the only one that seemed to work - apparently it doesn't!)
He gets a normal sized morning feed, a normal sized early evening feed, then he's left ith the large trug over night.
Hay is 'ad lib' by way that he never gets through it all, but half is loose and half is in a net.
The field has some grass, not much, but some....but they also have adlib hay out there too (normally big round bales, but we put out small bales in between large bale delivery) There's always some hay left when they're brought in.
The stble and stress and boxwalking has only started in the last few days, the ridden behaviour started a few weeks ago. The behaviour made a step change for the worse 2 days ago when ther was a shoot in a nearby field, it was this day that the boxwalking started.
Before that he appeared very relaxed to handle and in his stable and field, it was only showing in his ridden behaviour. Since that day he isn't relaxed in stable or field, even with all other horses with him.
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Post by kathrynp on Jan 2, 2010 17:22:03 GMT 1
Just wondered if the bad ridden behaviour has been consistent with the presence of ulcers in the past and how long has it been going on for? Sorry if you've already said this!!
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Post by geeup on Jan 2, 2010 17:23:58 GMT 1
maybe you need to ring his old owners up, sounds like hes unhappy, maybe he saw a friend shot in front of him, I think this is pshycological, what about an animal communicator?
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