Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Trouble on Dec 31, 2009 19:17:58 GMT 1
Ok, so initial feeling is that my trust in my farrier have been misplaced, and I need to get in an actual trimmer to come and assess, take us forward etc. i can do that. That's easily sorted.
Check. I have something else to try.
Ok, so lets say his feet are a problem, it's surely got to be reasonably subtle stuff? He's not got feet you look at and recoil in horror or anything? or am I actually that misguided?(that's a genuine question, if the answer is yes, then fair enough - I've learned something!)
So, if feet are a problem, and his action is being affected by it....could that then cause the ulcers? I know that's a bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' type question.....but could it?
If it could, then why not in the summer? Is that because the sheer volume of grass he's eating, better ground conditions, moving around, warmer all the time?
I have more aches and pains than most people my age (accident prone) and I know I feel it more at this time of year)
I'm def going to run with this one and see what happens, but i don't want to be bitterly disappointed when yet another problem crops up and causes him ulcers!
BTW, thanks to everyone who's inputting for me on all this, just want you to know I'm taking in every word, you've given me a whole new world of OCD to explore, and I reeeeeally appreciate any help that might get me closer to helping Snip get over all this and be a happy horse.
Also want to say thanks for saying it all kindly, I'm pretty low and, TBH, exhausted, from all this, and I don't need a bashing - everything so far has been constructive and helpful, and sympathetic to the fact I'm doing my best in a really difficult situation. I'm being brave and laying myself totally bare - happy to show any pics and any faults if it will help him - but it's made easier if people don't jump on me for silly little things that any non perfect person might be guilty of!!!
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Post by Debbie Glennan on Dec 31, 2009 19:56:45 GMT 1
Hi Trouble, here goes with the feet. I've been training with UKNHCP for just over a year now so still have masses to learn and i know that some qualified trimmers come on here and may be able to help more. Anyway, much of what Jenny says is correct, i also think the main issue is the back of his foot looks very weak with contracted heels and a subsequently under developed frog. The front feet to me look very upright and high in the heels. If you look side on to a good barefoot horse the cororany band should slope down down the ground with a low heel. What i suspect to be a major issue for snip and his feet is the lack of digital cushion, this area and the back third plays a huge role in supporting the entire horse and its locomation can seriously effected if this area is lacking in stucture. If you take a look at this website www.progressivehorse.co.uk it will give you a few pointers at assesing the quality of the digital cushion and its role in the hoof. He is typicaly for a TB quite long in his pastern conformation so in movement when this is combined with a lack of a supporting digital cushion in makes the drop the pastern makes more significant. I also would say he's long in toes and his frog is stretched, if you look at the front feet, they should be a more round shape, his are oval. There is little concavity on any of his feet, and the hinds are also high heeled which on these pictures look under run. I agree with Jenny about the right hind on the video, in front he lands noticably to lateral (outside) of his foot. Hope you don't think i'm just going there rubbish, on the plus side he does look to have good connection of the hoof wall with few deviations or ripples in the capsule. He does appear to land better on this video than the others, but he still landing toe first on occasions. To be honest when the back third of the foot is weak it would difficult for him not to land on his toes. I will have another look and think later, i need to go do New Year drinking now!!
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Post by peppertop on Dec 31, 2009 20:37:44 GMT 1
Deb says not to feel bad about trust your farrier or that you have been misguided, he's done the best job he can with the tools he has. they are not badly trimmed. She's lazy and drinking too much! ;-) I agree though, he can only work with the knowledge he has and he's doing a good job. You really need someone who really understands the internal structures of the foot and the biomechanics. No you wouldn't look at these feet and recoil in horror in terms of seperation hoof quality or balance. But if you take into account that with underrun heels and no support internally, combined with the long pastern of a Tb, there is a lot of leverage happening on a structure that may well not support it enough. Hope that makes sense! If its his feet could it contribute to the ulcers. Yes yes yes! I am so amzed how much horses hide in terms of comfort and also how many problems come from the feet. Horses live in their bodies as such and if they are not comfortable it causes them stress. Could it be worse in winter? I guess so. I ache more, my crappy knees hurt from slipping on the mud! Combine that with periods of being stabled, I do think that would contribute. I definately think its a good line of enquiry for you to follow up.
I know I was harsh on you before, and I apologise again for that. I can see you are trying your hardest for Snip and if theres anything I can do to help, I will. Can you pm me where you are and I will send you some details of trimmers. I have someone in mind who is fantastic at these sort of things and knows the internal structure of a foot better than anyone else I know.
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Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Trouble on Dec 31, 2009 21:06:59 GMT 1
Thank you....I have PM'ed you. Am off for a shower and to the pub now, but going to have a geek day tomorrow and get my head around all of this.
Right now, I need Baileys.
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Post by jennyb on Jan 1, 2010 11:42:40 GMT 1
Agree about the long pasterns too, I nearly wrote that last night but HAD to get ready to go out, lol! There is quite a drop through the pastern as he loads the limb due to the length of the pastern and the under run heels. That could well be putting a minor strain on his tendons & ligaments and make him feel a little ouchy - not enough to be lame or anything, but perhaps a little sore. He's quite a sensitive horse so I don't imagine it would take much to set him back ulcer-wise.
As Ruth & Debbit said, don't feel bad about his feet, they do look quite good overall but there are things to be improved. I have had the same thing with a farrier, supposed to be the best in the area, very well known and highly thought of. He let Cosworth's feet get terribly out of balance and I didn't notice until the vet pointed it out. I promptly went out and bought No Foot, No Horse, lol! It's a very good book and a recommended read, very easy to understand and educational.
So, if Snip was my horse, I would get in touch with a good barefoot trimmer (I use Adi Pratt, she's very good and travels up to me in Lincoln so I guess you would be on her way). I would also ask your vet to recommend an ACPAT physio who can assess that hindleg movement and figure out which muscles are weak and how to strengthen them. I use Sune du Toit, she does clinics near Newark, not sure if that is too far for you. She is just superb, I think Ruth uses her too. I have not come across anyone else who has such an eye for movement and knowledge of remedial exercises. I always say Cosworth would not be in work now without her, she rehabbed him really well when a lot of other "back people" and indeed other physios had looked at him and drawn a blank.
I don't think anyone can criticise you, not many people would have been so thorough and tried so hard!
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Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Trouble on Jan 1, 2010 11:56:32 GMT 1
Thanks Jenny, yeah I'm going to get in touch with a trimmer ASAP - just having a look at the options locally, have had a few pm's from a few people (thanks to all who have) recommending people, so I have some options.
There's a couple of other things that ocurred to me last night, not sure if they're relevant. He has always forged slightly in walk, only in walk and it usually happens when he is more relaxed. Out on hacks he used to plod along and he would forge nearly every stride, but has never over reached. When he's tense his stride shortens and that stops.
Also, when free schooled or lunged at canter, he switches his canter lead for no apparent reason, but about 50% of the time he does it into a disunited canter, I usually click him on a bit more forwards and he'll switch again and go back into a proper canter. He's never done that ridden.
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Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Trouble on Jan 1, 2010 12:01:00 GMT 1
Oh, and yeah totally agree ref the long pasterns - it was one of the things I commented on when I went to view him, but at that point his feet were vert badly shod and I decided they would look better (which they do - you mentioned in an earlier post about the hind broken pastern - the fronts used to be the worst for that)
But yeah, he does have long pasterns.
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Post by mandal on Jan 1, 2010 12:30:14 GMT 1
I'm being brave and laying myself totally bare - happy to show any pics and any faults if it will help him - but it's made easier if people don't jump on me for silly little things that any non perfect person might be guilty of!!! You are being so brave and totally selfless in your desire to help Snip and I admire you beyond words for exposing yourself as you have. ((((hugs)))) I'm reminded of Susan's onion analogy and this may be Snips case ie. there are his ulcers but there may be other less severe things going on like possibly his feet, so you have to peel back the layers as it were. The thing I've learned about toe first landing is that it doesn't allow a horse to develop strong structures in the back of the foot (digital cushion, lateral cartilages etc.) which is essential for a really strong foot. Horses if they are sore or weak in the back of the foot tend to land toe first as it's uncomfortable so sometimes slightly different trimming and conditioning is enough to encourage heel first landing and so begin developing the structures. Snip does seem to have basically good strong feet to me no thrush, seperation etc. Getting a 'good' Trimmer is imo a good idea anyway Trouble or a Farrier who has done a BF course there are some about.
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Post by peppertop on Jan 1, 2010 13:14:10 GMT 1
Sune is excellent. I worked with her quite a lot as she was a livery with me before we moved to Derbyshire. I agree with Jenny that she picks things up that others wouldn't. Re the forging, I would say that is a sign of him being tight in his back and not using it correctly, creating a dysfunctional use of the hind leg. That would also apply to the canter changing behind.
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tamzin
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Post by tamzin on Jan 1, 2010 13:38:01 GMT 1
Have you ever barned him instead of stabled? We have only three stables left at our yard as we have barned all the rest and they love it. They all get to live together and have plenty of room to walk. We had one that weaved so badly in the stable we put her in with the cows and she doesnt weave at all now. I understand most liveries place cannot change their arrangements but our horses seem to love it and it relieves the stress for them.
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Post by Yann on Jan 1, 2010 13:46:46 GMT 1
What everyone else has said re the feet and legs - a bit of bodywork would probably help a lot. Don't be pressing the panic button about his feet - there are some details of the trim that could possibly be better, the heels look a bit long perhaps, and they are a bit long and contracted but he does look to be landing pretty much heel first / flat which is as it should be. He has lovely thick walls too from the look of it Best of luck getting the ulcer issues sorted though, that must be so frustrating
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Post by mandal on Jan 1, 2010 14:11:58 GMT 1
. Don't be pressing the panic button about his feet I agree with this Trouble.
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Post by peppertop on Jan 1, 2010 14:25:17 GMT 1
I agree a panic response isn't ever helpful, but after the extensive investigation Trouble has done into finding out what is causing Snip problems and is still no clearer, I would think it is a good way forward. Up until 6 months ago, those feet wouldn't have concerned me much at all. Now.. I think they are a good place to have someone who knows far more than me take a good look. Tamzin: I want barns! That sounds great, wish I could do that for mine. They live out at night but wish I could give them the option of coming in when they want to.
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pd
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Post by pd on Jan 1, 2010 15:18:34 GMT 1
Trouble, there isn't anything "wrong" with his feet, or the trim he's getting. Whatever your problems are (I'm not quite sure only having read this thread, not others) it isn't caused by the feet, or causing problems in the feet.
Your farrier's style is a little different to the shape a barefoot trimmer would produce, but its producing a lovely healthy looking set of feet. I'd leave this well alone for now whilst you resolve whatever other issues you have.
Best wishes
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Post by june on Jan 1, 2010 15:59:16 GMT 1
I agree with pd. It isn't the feet that are causing the bucking and box walking. Yes, there are details that a trimmer would do differently but the farrier is doing a pretty reasonable job, and a better job than I've seen some trimmers do. I wouldn't be changing too many things just now.
It sounds like the ulcers are back and you need to get on top of those again first before adding more stress to your life!
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